15-02-2005 22:35									#61
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ahh it is all good mate

you may have noticed we in the Horde are a little, just a little, uneasy about others playing our saves and knowing our business

so could you please post the time lengths that were agreed upon

	15-02-2005 23:13									#62
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In accordance with this thread, the first 3 turns should be lax.

But after that turns should be played within 12 hours, I don't know how stringent you guys think this should be..... it would be good if everyone could understand and agree to a certain level of strictness so that there would be no come backs or disgruntlement if it does happen.....

It has now been 24 hours, which is fine as this is still only the 3rd turn, but if everyone understands that after 24 hours next turn, without any communication, it will be "skiparoo!"....
If teams aren't ok with that then now is the time to say....

One team this turn have stated they might be a while, which is cool....

	15-02-2005 23:14									#63
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quote: Team Euphorica: 1400-0200 GMT Team Bloody Oath Horde: 0600-1800 GMT Team Babylon: 1700-0500 GMT Team Desolation Row: 0200-1400 GMT Team Lost Boys: 2000-0800 GMT Team Conquest: 0600-1800 GMT

A question: What if 1889 sends the saave at midnight his time, and the turn is played, for us, by a European? We would have to wait to the following evening to play the save, which is longer than 12 hours (closer 18). According to the rules we would have our turn skipped, but I wasa wondering what the majority opinion on this issue was?

	15-02-2005 23:15									#64
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ah, crosspost...

	15-02-2005 23:36									#65
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quote: Originally posted by OPD In accordance with this thread, the first 3 turns should be lax. But after that turns should be played within 12 hours, I don't know how stringent you guys think this should be..... it would be good if everyone could understand and agree to a certain level of strictness so that there would be no come backs or disgruntlement if it does happen..... It has now been 24 hours, which is fine as this is still only the 3rd turn, but if everyone understands that after 24 hours next turn, without any communication, it will be "skiparoo!".... If teams aren't ok with that then now is the time to say.... One team this turn have stated they might be a while, which is cool....

OPD, two points old chap

1. thanks for that link. Even if I disagree that the poll states that it is 3 turns, and not 5 turns only as I see that of the 25 voters the majority should have won the day, as in most polls around Poly... I know and have read somewhere Snoopys reply about averaging and some such, I just believe that the poll is 5 not 3. But then you lads are the admins and can read the poll on that thread as well as any of us afterall

2. If a team has asked for an extension, then it should be notified clearly for all to see. If we are to care about this game, to structure time to be available to play the saves on time etc, then we should have true indicators that the save will be late etc. Many of us know the others game playing times etc, and those that do not will soon pick up a rythem on when to expect the save from how it is progressing in the Turn Tracker Thread. By knowing there is a delay allows us to get on with other things, such as real life

and welcome to the land of the Horde

	15-02-2005 23:44									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Krill quote: Team Euphorica: 1400-0200 GMT Team Bloody Oath Horde: 0600-1800 GMT Team Babylon: 1700-0500 GMT Team Desolation Row: 0200-1400 GMT Team Lost Boys: 2000-0800 GMT Team Conquest: 0600-1800 GMT A question: What if 1889 sends the saave at midnight his time, and the turn is played, for us, by a European? We would have to wait to the following evening to play the save, which is longer than 12 hours (closer 18). According to the rules we would have our turn skipped, but I wasa wondering what the majority opinion on this issue was?

an interesting point Krill, interesting indeed

with a little detective work and some devious cunning a team could use this as a way of exploiting / damaging the next team etc - sad but true, after all this really is a game of war, not of love. So something else to be considered.

Has this ever been encountered in the other Teamed Demo Games?



on a seperate point, as to the play order you posted above, I just would like to mention that we had agreed to the play order, just not the times that are listed with the order...

thanks

	16-02-2005 01:06									#67
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quote: Has this ever been encountered in the other Teamed Demo Games?

Yes, and it waas accomplished by allowing each team 24 hours to play the sav.

Oh, and Paddy, I don't get the use of that smilie, or this sentence:

quote: with a little detective work and some devious cunning a team could use this as a way of exploiting / damaging the next team etc - sad but true, after all this really is a game of war, not of love. So something else to be considered.

So you are saying that, from the start of this game, we can do anything that we want to try and win (the game?)

	16-02-2005 01:18									#68
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ahhh clarification... the smilie was used as a wink, after the word thanks, on a seperate sentence at the end of my rant is all

the sentence you then question was just to point out that a team could use this procedure as an exploit so that another team could then miss their turn.. all by playing with when they send the save at certain hours etc.

I have no way given any such permission regarding doing anything to win the game. I was just stating a fact that there is a difference between love and war.

	16-02-2005 01:29									#69
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quote: The sentence you then question was just to point out that a team could use this procedure as an exploit so that another team could then miss their turn.. all by playing with when they send the save at certain hours etc.

aah, so it seems that we have a flaw in the current timing system. Does anyone care? And what are the alternatives?

	16-02-2005 02:45									#70
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Team conquest best be sending the mod team some bananas to be...periodically unavailable...to skip them...


In all seriousness, I think everyone would agree that skipping not be used as a weapon. Looks to me like 24 hours might be a requirement in a team game.

	16-02-2005 02:55									#71
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All discussion about what to do on the next turn should take place between turns, so 12 hours from the time the save is sent is plenty of time to enter your orders and send the game on. I'm not sure why everybody is mentioning 24 now. It has always been 12 as far as I can remember. We have enough people in each team that somebody will have to play it.

Maybe everybody doesn't get a chance to vote, that hardly seems like a big enough deal to hold up the entire game.

	16-02-2005 03:05									#72
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My understanding is that the 12 hour rule was only to apply for either a certain number of turns, or into a certain age. Then it would change to 24 for the same sort of thing, and later possibly 48.

This was all in the original roll out, and if I remember correctly the team captains all had to vote on it. Which I am sure Snoop made sure about.

I have been trying to track down the posts that clearly states the outcome to that chat, but have not found it yet... I keep goofing off to play pbems, go for swims and eat food I will find it amongst all of these setup threads eventually It may even be in one of Snoop's setup emails to the team captains.

As to the 24 hours, well we will be there soon anyway, and it could be a good thing in letting teams that are scattered all over the planet to have a chat about the turn etc

You will notice though that a lot of teams are all prepared and have the save dealt with very quickly

	16-02-2005 04:06									#73
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quote: All discussion about what to do on the next turn should take place between turns, so 12 hours from the time the save is sent is plenty of time to enter your orders and send the game on. I'm not sure why everybody is mentioning 24 now. It has always been 12 as far as I can remember. We have enough people in each team that somebody will have to play it. Maybe everybody doesn't get a chance to vote, that hardly seems like a big enough deal to hold up the entire game.

1889, let me point something out to you that you may not fully realise at this moment in time: people go inactive, because of various reasons, such as boredom, work, exams, burnout, leaving Poly in general, and, in a couple of cases, becuase of a hostile public forum (i.e. the Voxian War, and the Great Bobian War, PTWDG) and, in general, while building is taking place. Most teams in demogames get whittled down to the absolute core, (i.e. Glory of War. When Master Zen got stuck without internet access, it took a whole week to get the turn played, by a single side, becuase there was not a single person who understood the building plans.)

Now, I can understand if turns were skipped due to reasons such as slow play, and I agree that all those who signed up to this game should accept that. My point however, was that if the save was sent at midnight, then there is a good chance that there is absolutely no one on AM that could access C3C, because they are at work or school.

Are you saying that if this happens, we should have our turn forfeited because of slow play?

	16-02-2005 04:52									#74
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Thanks to Snoop for leading me to the C3CDG: Turn Limits thread...

The idea of time frames was Simple:

From the start: 12/24 hours
From beginning Medieval age: 12/24 hours
From beginning Industrial age: 24/48 hours
From beginning Modern age (gasp!): 24/48/72 hours

then the captains of each team were to vote etc

well we are still looking to see if all did vote on this matter...
hopefully the final details are on a series of emails that Snoop did to get everything sorted so that Dom could get the map completed

	16-02-2005 05:18									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Paddy the Scot OPD, two points old chap 1. thanks for that link. Even if I disagree that the poll states that it is 3 turns, and not 5 turns

Ahem. Majority means > 50%. No one item has that. You believe in a plurality ... which I do not.

quote: 2. If a team has asked for an extension, then it should be notified clearly for all to see. If we are to care about this game, to structure time to be available to play the saves on time etc, then we should have true indicators that the save will be late etc. Many of us know the others game playing times etc, and those that do not will soon pick up a rythem on when to expect the save from how it is progressing in the Turn Tracker Thread. By knowing there is a delay allows us to get on with other things, such as real life

	16-02-2005 05:18									#76
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If we are micromanaging to the max and researching at high rates so our cashflow is negative, I'll be damned if I'll accept somebody pressing "enter" on our turn forcing us into the red and losing an expensive Granary. That is simply too much of a penalty to wear for a little tardiness

	16-02-2005 05:42									#77
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I believe we should consider amending the turn rule in the following way:


The turn limit is 12 hours from the end of the last team's turn limit, before anyone is skipped.


IE, you get 24 hours from the start of the last person's turn. As the teams were set up to ensure they could play the turns in succession, there should be no problem with teams being unable to play the turn during their time-frame. It also prevents using the turn skipping as a weapon.

Example:
* Team Conquest receives the turn at 06:00 GMT on 18 Feb. They play the turn at 07:15 GMT and send it on to Euphorica.

Euphorica has a 12 hour 'limit' until 19:15, in theory, but is not skipped until 06:00 GMT on 19 Feb (24 hours from the start of Conquest's turn).

They then send it at 20:10 to Team BOH. (on 18 Feb)

Then team BOH has a 'limit' until 8:10 on 19 Feb (12 hours later), 12 hours later (strictly).

(Now, the rule could also be amended to be "12 hours from the 'skip time' of the previous team's turn", which would in this case give BOH until 18:00 GMT to play the turn.)

This rule would ensure the game is always running at a minimum of 3 days/round (12 hours * 6 teams), but there is still a (slight) chance of people getting skipped, as in the (presumably rare) situation like this one. I'm not sure if there are any real situations which would come up like this - but it's still technically possible. To be used aggressively, it would require 2 teams conspiring to break the rules.

Last edited by snoopy369 on 16-02-2005 at 07:27

	16-02-2005 05:48									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 If we are micromanaging to the max and researching at high rates so our cashflow is negative, I'll be damned if I'll accept somebody pressing "enter" on our turn forcing us into the red and losing an expensive Granary. That is simply too much of a penalty to wear for a little tardiness

Nonetheless the six team captains agreed to a 12 hour turn limit (4 votes to 2). I have to assume a strict, or at least reasonably strict, enforcement was implied by such a vote. As has been stated by others, this really works out to nearly 3 days to consider your actions (unless everyone is playing quickly, in which case you still are taking much longer than anyone else). If you're micromanaging that much, you should be deciding many turns in advance what to do anyhow. I know my team is doing so anyway...

Nonetheless I agree that a strict 12 hour limit can be harmful in some rare cases; see above.

	16-02-2005 05:54									#79
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also on that, the admins have stated that if the team notifies them about a delay then all is good

we all have amaziung internet access....

	16-02-2005 06:35									#80
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Ok then.

I wish to notify the administrators that our team, at some indeterminate place in the foggy sands of time, shall be delayed in playing our turn and will require an extension

	16-02-2005 06:56									#81
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what else would one truely expect

* Paddy the Scot passes over a ice cold RedBack to Aqua

	16-02-2005 07:48									#82
	Re: Turn Skipping Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by snoopy369 I believe we should consider amending the turn rule in the following way: The turn limit is 12 hours from the end of the last team's turn limit, before anyone is skipped. IE, you get 24 hours from the start of the last person's turn. As the teams were set up to ensure they could play the turns in succession, there should be no problem with teams being unable to play the turn during their time-frame. It also prevents using the turn skipping as a weapon. Example: * Team Conquest receives the turn at 06:00 GMT on 18 Feb. They play the turn at 07:15 GMT and send it on to Euphorica. Euphorica has a 12 hour 'limit' until 19:15, in theory, but is not skipped until 06:00 GMT on 19 Feb (24 hours from the start of Conquest's turn). They then send it at 20:10 to Team BOH. (on 18 Feb) Then team BOH has a 'limit' until 8:10 on 19 Feb (12 hours later), 12 hours later (strictly). (Now, the rule could also be amended to be "12 hours from the 'skip time' of the previous team's turn", which would in this case give BOH until 18:00 GMT to play the turn.) This rule would ensure the game is always running at a minimum of 3 days/round (12 hours * 6 teams), but there is still a (slight) chance of people getting skipped, as in the (presumably rare) situation like this one. I'm not sure if there are any real situations which would come up like this - but it's still technically possible. To be used aggressively, it would require 2 teams conspiring to break the rules. Any thoughts?

That is Grand, just Grand indeed, well done Snoop

This clearly allows all teams to cove all bases... and with a back up player or two, then the above idea has a great chance of success.

Will the option where a team knows that they will be late, then emailing or posting to say so, thus giving them extra time, still be available?

	16-02-2005 11:51									#83
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Well of course. Occasional absences and delays are to be expected, and if a ... um, what do you call it when the one group of people throw sticks and stuff at the other ... oh, yeah, war ... if a war breaks out, then we'll of course allow longer.

Right?

	18-02-2005 21:26									#84
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Not sure if I'm a moderator, but I'll chime in:

I believe what it comes down to is quality versus quantity: does every turn need to be played "just right" (say, with inputs from all players on a team, or with thorough scenario testing), or is a steady/high turn turnover rate more important?

Each team is different. Some teams are run by micromanagers that will not pass on the turn until every Shield is accounted for. Some teams insists on polling every issue. Some teams prefer the roleplaying to the nitty-gritty and just want to see things evolve.

As Uno mentions, 12 hours may not be enough for those teams that care about doing things right. Forcing these teams to play fast may seriously ruin some individual members' fun. 24 hours is certainly more realistic. There's no need to complicate matters with additional rules.

In my experience the worst thing about turn turnover rate is a player/team that is erratic. If all teams collectively find some kind of rhythm then I doubt anyone will much mind if turns take 12 or 24 hours (in fact, with a rhythm it is much easier to schedule turn-playing times and/or discussions which results in faster pace of play).

So, might I put out that this currently it is only turn 4, and that's certainly not enough time to develop a rhythm between six team-pairs. Also might I point out that, with a starter pack of two additional Settlers and and an extra Worker, this game is effectively on turn 40 or more already. And, given the map settings, things are likely to move along quite rapidly. CIV is still a ways off!

* Dominae glares at snoopy369 for taking 2+ days to play his turns in Snow and Ice PBEM

	18-02-2005 22:41									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae * Dominae glares at snoopy369 for taking 2+ days to play his turns in Snow and Ice PBEM

Dom's correct as is UnO in the other thread. Sometimes it just takes a little longer. Having been a turnplayer in a few other demogames (one where I was the primary turnplayer for a year and a half, and one where I was the back-up that eventually took over as primary for a few months) I can say that having a back-up does indeed reduce the chances of taking too long, but some teams do indeed need the time to decide depending on their structure.

I imagine Dom was talking specifically about his experience with Gathering Storm (the MM team ) but other teams do that too and sometimes might need input from specific members who are asleep when the rest of the team is awake. It happens.

I think the best solution right now would be to continue with the 12 hour limit, but if a team knows they won't hit that limit then they should post about it and shouldn't be penalized for that (as I think Aqualung just did).

	20-02-2005 01:17									#86
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I think that the limits were voted on by the teams and approved, so they should be held to. Teams should of course occasionally be allowed to post when they will need a little more time... but it shouldn't be a habit, either.

On that note ... I notice it's been a long time since Conquest in theory got the save - but Ormuzd posted in the EoD TT thread something that I interpret to mean they need a resend of the save (the save wasn't attached), is that correct? Mods, if you don't have a copy of the save either can you investigate?

	20-02-2005 01:24									#87
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Yeah, 1889 forgot to attach the save, so I think there is little chance of us playing without a resend...

	20-02-2005 01:56									#88
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quote: Originally posted by snoopy369 Mods, if you don't have a copy of the save either can you investigate?

yeah, I sent him an email saying he didn't attach the save

	20-02-2005 09:57									#89
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a great loop hole

ahh it is all good

the poor lad will be kicking himself when he finds out what he did

	20-02-2005 11:02									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Paddy the Scot the poor lad will be kicking himself when he finds out what he did

I am sure he will. I know I would.

However, it has now been over 26 hours sent 1889 thought he sent the save and over 37 hours since he received it. Is their a way to get in touch with the back-up turn player?

Allowances should be made for honest mistakes, but at some point the game must go on.

Perhaps the team captians and mods can put their heads together to make some kind of policy on this?