07-02-2005 22:19									#1
	Discussion: First city founding locations Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I don't see this discussed anywhere in our forum yet and this seems most pressing to me:

Under what conditions would moving our starting settler over be desirable?

I would propose that it generally be founded in place unless either of the below applies:

1. If it's on a food bonus or shield bonus it be moved off it.

2. If wouldn't have direct access to fresh water in place but would one tile away it be moved to fresh water.

Free Aquaducts are very powerful for boosting taxes, science, and increased support for Republic.

(I'll have something to say on the extra starting settler once we get a screen shot)

Last edited by joncnunn on 07-02-2005 at 22:40

	07-02-2005 23:53									#2
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How many settlers and workers do we receive?

Getting the extra bonus can be quite nice. Also, fresh water is quite underrated, IMHO. So I agree with both your points.

If we see "coast", can we determine whether it is coastal sea or fresh water lake, without having to establish a city first (if so, how?)

Let me add a #3:

3. If we start near a mountain range, or other undesirable terrain, we should consider moving away from it.


We might want to move our worker(s) first, to scout out bits of the terrain.

	08-02-2005 00:38									#3
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I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I belive we start with 1 extra Worker and Settler each. (2 Total for each)

In the case of #3, a Worker should definately climb the mountain before deciding the location of the first city.

	08-02-2005 02:05									#4
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I think it'll be:

3 Settlers, 3 Workers, 2 Warriors.

	08-02-2005 02:07									#5
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In that case, we'll need to found the 2nd city pretty quickly.

When we found the first city, we'll be 3 units over the limit.

And Temple build in the capital may make a lot of sense if there's a forest to chop.

	08-02-2005 02:25									#6
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We get half-priced temples, right? That's not a bad idea, then.

Also, we might want to consider becoming the culture #1 civ...

How hard is it to score a cultural win? (probably near impossible with all those aggressive players around...)



Maybe we should found the second city only 2 or 3 tiles from the capital (depending on the terrain).

	08-02-2005 03:09									#7
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In SP mode, it's really easy to score a cultural win.

In MP mode though, forget it. One glance at F8 would encourage a human to attack someone with too much culture.

Well, a city 2 tiles away from the capital would either make the capital or that other city a camp to be disbanded at some point and in each case, would probably be disbanded either when the other reaches size 7 or else when it becomes apprent that cities on the edges are suffering from city rank corruption. (Whichever is first) I'm not saying I'm against the idea, just that we should keep it in mind on our city builds.

A city 3 tiles away is more likely to be permenent, athough there are cases when that is also a camp. (If surrounded by 3 tile away cities)

In any case, we probably should not publically name Camps something so obvious that it would be easily identifiable to our oppoents as a temp city. I propose that on our private that we keep (Fort or Camp) In () before the public name of the city. That way we know for sure which cities are temp and our oppoents don't.

I'm really hoping that one of the cites we build with our starting settlers can function easily as a settler factory.

quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster We get half-priced temples, right? That's not a bad idea, then. Also, we might want to consider becoming the culture #1 civ... How hard is it to score a cultural win? (probably near impossible with all those aggressive players around...) Maybe we should found the second city only 2 or 3 tiles from the capital (depending on the terrain).

	08-02-2005 04:57									#8
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BFM,
I'm all in favor of trying for the Cultural win. Then again we might just get slaughtered that way. I was hoping that we'd try something other than a military victory.

	08-02-2005 07:48									#9
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I don't think we can win it by culture - but it would be worth a try.

As to city start locations, I generally agree with the principles.

I am not a fan of camps. I think our first 3 settlers should represent the permanent core of the civilization. What is very key with a multi-settler start is who settles first - as that becomes the capital. The early exploration - even using workers if needed to scout out the area - is important. And it may mean delaying building city B, in order that we get city A, the capital built first.

I personally like to stick to a 3 or 4 tile spacing. In an aggressive MP game such as this - 3 tile seems safer (ie two tiles between key core cities.)

	08-02-2005 13:13									#10
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I think 3-tile spacing is better anyway in a game where quick production will be key to survival.

	09-02-2005 01:39									#11
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please explain: "I am not a fan of camps"

If you mean having our borders broken to allow for future growth. I agree. I usually keep my first cities closer 3 to 4 spaces. It is not until the empire is growing quicker that I space out the cities more. Or if I need to grab a key resource or choke point on the map.

	09-02-2005 02:07									#12
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Camps = Temp City. Usally builds nothing but a Barracks and miltary units, ending in a combo of workers and settlers to disband it once the first of these two conditions arrives:

1. The neighboring perment cities need to work all the tiles the camp is working. [Sometimes the camp is just so the neighbors can work extra tiles they couldn't without an expansion, but that's one need we DON'T have as the babs with half price Temples & Libaries.]

2. The camp has such a low city rank vs total number of cities, that it's costing more in corruption [to all cities past it] than it's bringing in. (If this camp is causing you to lose 6 shields collectively in the following cities and it's only bringing in 5 [itself + neighbors that depend upon the camp minimum culture], your better off without it.) This is why generally those that use Ralphing disband the camps near the capital first.

I suppose a worker or settler factory could be set up as a camp with plans for disbandment, but it's more common for tem to be permenant cities that just have a large delay before building something other than a granery and workers/settlers.

Myself, I'm generally not a big fan of camps, but I built one in a current game (timing it to disappear after both neighbors have Temples.) and the AI built such a c#%! site that I'm treating that city as a camp that never produces a unit other than a settler so it can relocate itself.

	09-02-2005 02:21									#13
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Thanks. Now, "Ralphing"?

	09-02-2005 02:36									#14
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Sir Ralph denies that he invented this, but it's the pratice of massively building a mix of permenent cities and camps.

The permenant cities are built in a pattern allowing a full 20 tiles worked, and the [pre-Hospital] holes filled in with tempoary cities (camps).