07-02-2005 22:47									#1
	Initial Strategy Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Let's talk about early strategy.

My idea with starting this team was to gather together a whole bunch of sadistic reprobates into a kick-arse civ and be really nasty to everyone else. This is totally unlike me in PBEM games, so I may need some guidance, right Masuro?

Needless to say I succeeded in gathering the reprobates. Now we have to decide our strategy.

Firstly, I believe we must analyse our civ and play to its strengths. I chose Persia as our civ for some fairly obvious reasons. Most importantly, we have a very strong early UU. This makes the discovery and securing of an Iron source crucial in our early game. Upon achieving this early goal, we will have absolute military supremacy (in terms of power, but not necessarily in terms of value per shield invested so we must still MM hard) until the advent of Medieval Infantry with Feudalism. We MUST turn this to our advantage, which means attacking one or more rival civs. This rules out the usual "build and attack later" style of DemoGame which I am led to believe has been prevalent in the past.

Next, we must play to our traits. Again, given the restriction against Agricultural civs, I chose what I believe are the 2 next best traits (in combination) on a Pangea.....Industrious and Scientific. I am sure there are other viewpoints, but frankly they are moot at this point.

Now, being a Scientific civ we clearly influenced the vote on SGL's to tip it in our favour We must capitalise on this and promote early research and a quick path to Literature.

We can also gain an early domination in Worker power, and by building some early Workers we will be able to establish a good lead in production and commerce over the other civs whose lazy Workers take longer to complete their jobs.

On buid queues, I am a habitual Granary builder (Moonbars, don't take special note of this!!!). So I will always tend towards building early Granaries in core cities. If you disagree based on principle or specific terrain/map/bonus circumstances, please speak up.

Tech research should be angled towards the following techs in decreasing order of priority:

1. Iron Working
2. Literature
3. Monarchy


Those are my inital strategy thoughts, and should provide some potential for lively discussion.

	08-02-2005 00:00									#2
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Problem with SCI and Persia is that it's not good synergy to focus on lots of immortals and conquest, if you also want to try and generate SGLs - they are opposing goals.

If we want to get techs first and generate SGLs, we need high population core cities, and libraries. There is no garantee we will ever get a SGL, even if we get all the techs before anybody else. The extra cost in doing all the bleeding edge research is, IMO, not worth the possibility of getting a SGL.

I consider SGL generation to be risky. Better to pre-build wonders and garantee you'll at least get a wonder at some point. All the PBEMS I have seen have been very low on wonder building - perhaps we could attempt to construct a lot?

How about a two-stage plan:

Stage One:

REX, Granaires, Tech Push, high population cities until either a) We get a SGL b) we get IW and Lit or we get a goverment advance

Stage Two:

We Build imortals, possibly pop rushing some, and attack a neighbour. We use the golden age period to generate lots of gold, upgrade warriors and rush libraries if in MON or REP, else we use the GA to continue our tech advance, whilst pop-rushing libraries.

	08-02-2005 02:52									#3
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Early growth building up to a massive military superiority should be the priority. As Moonbars said, we won't really have the resources to maximize EVERYTHING to our advantage - so we should focus on the top item of the list.

Literature is definitely a good tech for us, and the Libraries will provide culture as well as the normal science boost. However, the focus should be on economic and then military matters, IMO.

	08-02-2005 05:46									#4
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I don't think any of the comments so far are inconsistent. The SGL issue is of course minor given the relatively small chance of occurrence, but it is nonetheless an advantage for us - we have a 66% greater chance of getting one than non-Scientific civs, so tech superiority has lots of potential upside.

But generally I agree - early economic growth with Granaries and Workers, the odd Library if we get to Literature quickly enough, then a massive military build-up of Immortals (and hopefully some Horsies for harrassment and nasty military tactics).

	08-02-2005 08:54									#5
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Starting with Masonry and Broze Working, I say we beeline for Construction... they'll never see it coming!



A look at the starting techs:

Persia: Bronze Working, Masonry
China: Warrior Code, Masonry
Egypt: Ceremonial Burial, Masonry
Babylon: Bronze Working, Ceremonial Burial
Mongols: Warrior Code, Pottery
Carthage: Alphabet, Masonry

Crap. Egypt and China will be in the same boat as us, trade-value-wise, and Carthage won't trade Alphabet until they've got a comfortable lead on Writing, which may still be before we finish IW, if we choose to research it first. The Mongols appear to be a pretty desirable trading partner at the outset, but about all we can do there is hope we find them, or they find us, before the others, and hope they haven't tripped over too many huts in the process.

Iron Working is the safe bet for us to begin with. It gives us a second-tier trade bait that only Babylon will be able to get to as quickly, all things being equal. If we can turn Carthage into a trading partner early, we should be able to use them for a leg up toward literature. Whether or not we'll be able to get Alphabet and Writing out of them will depend on how the game begins and progresses, obviously, but I think that should be an early goal. Don't worry, I'm already contemplating the dastardly backstab, too .

Moving on from that stream of semi-consciousness, I agree early growth will be the key. If we can get enough cities to keep a good balance between high population in the core and pop-rushing some Immortals on the outskirts, as Moonbars said, we should be sitting pretty.

A few other passing thoughts about the starting techs and where teams might start their research:

*China may be a decent bet to research The Wheel since WC is their most unique starter, and HBR can be a lucrative tech to reach first.
*If China doesn't go after TW, they'll go with Pottery, most likely.
*I expect Egypt to research Mysticism and try to trade with it. I would say TW here, but theirs is a crappy UU, and I doubt they expect to trigger a GA with it. I'm even more skeptical that they would try to trigger it so early that they'd need to research TW first.
*Obviously, Carthage is going to try the Philosophy beeline. If they decide to attempt a republic slingshot, we may have to research Writing on our own, since they'll hold us off Writing until they've gotten CoL.
*If I'm Babylon, I'm definitely going second-tier right off the bat, and figuring my odds of trading for WC are pretty good. The question is, which one. We're an easy read with IW, so I'd expect Mysticism out of them, unless they have no intention of trading with us. It's cheap for a second tier tech and decent trade material.
*I'm not sure which way I go if I'm the Mongols. Possibly TW, since their two second tier techs aren't readily available, and Alphabet is more expensive. Then again, if they're true to their bluster, they'll want BW, and have no interest in trading for it. That may mean an ultra-early archer rush for somebody, but I doubt they'd take that gamble.

In the event that my predictions are just way, way off, I'll be editing them accordingly.

	08-02-2005 11:33									#6
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Our first decision is whether to go straight for IW or Pottery. I hate leaving the first Granary too late as it stunts early growth and ability to build that second Worker quickly. On the other hand as Solomwi has pointed out, IW will have better early trade value (and Pottery virtually none if most civs target it early). However, I don't believe getting IW first is crucial for early Immortal building - that can wait a while. Identification of "our" Iron source is the more important factor in being first to IW.

Or else we can hope to meet the Mongols early and trade for Pottery.

	08-02-2005 12:15									#7
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My thinking is that on a small pangea map, with them being Expansionist, we'll meet them fairly quickly. You're right that Immortal building alone isn't a strong enough justification for an IW-first strategy, especially since, due to map size and "tailoring", we're very likely to not be far from iron. The trade possibilities may be, though, especially with only one other civ starting with BW. Of course, you're right that the earlier we see it, the earlier we can know we've grabbed it. I'm still reeling a little from that nasty little trick of the RNG gods that we suffered in PTWDGII, so I'm antsy about iron.

Btw, I've run the beaker cost for our opening possibilities. IW is 150 beakers and Pottery is a mere 50.

Consider also that, even if we don't meet the Mongols soon enough, there's a decent shot that our neighbor will research Pottery, and lack either BW or Masonry.

	08-02-2005 12:52									#8
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I say pottery first.

	08-02-2005 19:14									#9
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I agree.....Pottery...on balance

	09-02-2005 18:26									#10
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after looking at the starting spot, i'd prefer IW. especially as the other guys have pottery and we can probably buy it for not too much money (2 turns of savings maybe)

	10-02-2005 03:38									#11
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quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf after looking at the starting spot, i'd prefer IW. especially as the other guys have pottery and we can probably buy it for not too much money (2 turns of savings maybe)

Only the Mongols start with Pottery, so we are taking a chance of meeting them early (or another civ they have traded early with), or else pushing back our first Granary by quite a lot of turns.

I wouldn't want to take this risk, with the consequence that our first Granaries are delayed too much.

	10-02-2005 03:55									#12
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I agree with Aqua on that.

	10-02-2005 04:43									#13
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hmm... you are probably both right. and as we are not the only scientific civ others may be running for IW anyhow.

	10-02-2005 08:32									#14
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Only one other, Sabrewolf, but your point still stands. After looking at our start, we should be able to make short work of pottery, in which case that would be the route to go.

	11-02-2005 02:53									#15
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another problem of persia (i'm playing them in 2 other PBEMs) is the lack of initial research possibilities. the only 2nd level tech is IW. researching a baselevel tech would be a shame (except ofcourse pottery). so we have to rely on "acquiring" alphabet asap to open up maths as an option.

	11-02-2005 10:14									#16
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I agree. The bright side is that if we go Pottery->IW, we should have plenty of time to acquire alphabet. Of course, that all depends on how paranoid Carthage is about their beeline, too.

	11-02-2005 21:53									#17
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we could guarantee them not to go for philosophy? but by the time we meet them they'll be halfway to writing anyhow, so no big problem for them anyhow

	12-02-2005 20:46									#18
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It would still depend on their level of paranoia about it, though. I tend to agree with you, but you never know.

	13-02-2005 20:05									#19
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I suggest we go for horseback riding as soon as possible. I think we should use a fast unit to cripple other civs as soon as we meet them. Just pillaging a few of their squares early in the game can set them back a long ways.

	13-02-2005 22:35									#20
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HBR with persia would be a shame. we've got this wonderful cheap unit, but it is absolutely not in the path of horsemen, neither for upgrades, nor by tech.

i would like to initiate a discussion on HOW agressive we should play. i mean... crippling an enemy early may easy the expansion in that direction, but otoh there is the risk that everybody turns against us. how much desolation and nastiness can we perform without having to suffer reprecussions?

	13-02-2005 22:52									#21
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Everything depends on geography... for all we know we could be on an island by ourselves (not likely, but it's possible). Alternatively, we could be on a landmass with 1 other civ while the rest of the teams all have contact and are trading. Do we want to wipe out our only trading partner to find the other 4 civs 100 turns later with Cavalry?

We need to learn a bit more about our surroundings before we can commit to any type of playstyle. Our UU and our traits allow us that flexibility - if it's war, then our Immortals are powerful; if it's building, then we have two 'builder' traits.

	14-02-2005 05:31									#22
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I agree with Trip. A start like this (though I'm sure Dom gave us all good starts) is conducive to building, particularly with our traits, and gives us the option to pull out our secret-weapon cheap super killing machine (once we find Iron).

Then again, that's why I suggested Persia to begin with

	15-02-2005 04:35									#23
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Not that it would necessarily preclude the two scenarios Trip mentioned, but do I remember right that the map is a pangea?

	24-02-2005 06:18									#24
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Now that we've established 3 towns and have met our first enemy ( evilgrin ), it's time to top this thread and revisit our strategy discussions.

I think we should take out Team Euphorica's town if it proves to be undefended.

I agree our next town should be north as per Moonbars' suggestion.

I don't think we should produce any Settlers until we complete our first Granary

I think we should be prioritising Warrior builds initially. '

After the Granary is built, the capital should be devoted to Settlers, Workers and Warriors.

exploration should continue south and west.

	24-02-2005 14:19									#25
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I would agree that taking out one of their towns could be profitable. However, they will likely switch over to war, and try and strike back. Are we ready to forgo settlers, and build barracks and archers instead?

	24-02-2005 21:45									#26
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Moonbars is right. Taking one of their towns could have the long-term effect of retarding us both, especially if there's a civ close enough to our southern flank to gobble up any land we might have claimed in that direction.

	24-02-2005 22:09									#27
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What should our objectives be in our dealings with the enemy tribes? I would suggest the following:

1) We want to make some trades so as to keep up with the builder races.

2) We want to try and have at least one ally, a team we can trade with and co-ordinate military matters with until they are the last team, at which point we kill them.

3) We want to meet as many of the other tribes as we can, as soon as possible, which will help with 1) and 2) above. I would suggest sending out the current batch of warriors under construction to do this, We might also consider a 3-move curragh when we have access to the sea, if a large amount of land & races remain un-met/explored.

4) We want to gain Iron, should we not have it or be able to settler it, with an Archer/Spear/Horse army.

5) We want to crush or cripple at least one of our immediate neighbours with Immortals. This results in a GA, with which I think we should build the Great Library, or the SoZ.

6) We want to take on the tribe with the greatest "Builder" potential with our Immortals (+Ancient Cav?) before they are obsolete.

	25-02-2005 06:49									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Moonbars 1) We want to make some trades so as to keep up with the builder races.

Agreed. Errr, aren't we a builder race too?

quote: 2) We want to try and have at least one ally, a team we can trade with and co-ordinate military matters with until they are the last team, at which point we kill them.

I guess so.....we can't fight everybody at once. But no-one will be a long term ally.

quote: 3) We want to meet as many of the other tribes as we can, as soon as possible, which will help with 1) and 2) above. I would suggest sending out the current batch of warriors under construction to do this, We might also consider a 3-move curragh when we have access to the sea, if a large amount of land & races remain un-met/explored.

I'm cautious about sending out too many explorers and leaving the home area sparsely defended. We must ensure our core remains secure at all times, as this will be a nasty game. As for Curraghs, they only move 2 tiles....but yes, a Curragh may be useful.

quote: 4) We want to gain Iron, should we not have it or be able to settler it, with an Archer/Spear/Horse army.

Iron is the most important thing in this game for us, and we MUST have it.....either through settling a town or early conquest.

quote: 5) We want to crush or cripple at least one of our immediate neighbours with Immortals. This results in a GA, with which I think we should build the Great Library, or the SoZ.

I'm not a big fan of the GL, while SoZ may result in a dogpile against us. I would always pick the Pyramids over either.

quote: 6) We want to take on the tribe with the greatest "Builder" potential with our Immortals (+Ancient Cav?) before they are obsolete.

What is a "builder potential" tribe? I'd say that Scientific/Industrious is probably the greatest builder potential, and that's us! Next to us, probably China, who we already know and will be our first logical target.

	25-02-2005 07:02									#29
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Diplomacy is the key to DGs. It's what seperates them from games of every other type. A civ can be weak with a poor start but come up victorious due to diplomacy.

With that in mind, the most important things are as follows:

- Don't make yourself a target. Making enemies early on is a very very bad idea unless you're confident you can erase them from play.

- Play sides against each other. Being the middle-man is the best spot of all. If other teams are courting you for support then you know you're in the best possible position.

- Getting strapped into true long-term alliances is dangerous. Again, playing the middle-man who has an ear for both sides but doesn't commit to either is the best.

In the end things usually don't end up so clean and efficient, but it's always nice to have goals in mind.