11-02-2005 04:31									#121
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quote: Did you read my post or you just don't believe it?

I just don't believe that legalization, by itself, leads to less use. There are probably other reasons involved if use did fall. It makes no sense to say that legalization (which ends up ending the monopolistic pricing) would have that effect.

The Netherlands, however, did not enforce the law when on the books, so it was de facto decriminalized, if not de jure.

	11-02-2005 04:35									#122
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True, but don't you think that at least it demonstrates that legalization has little or no effect on consumption?

EDIT: thus, even acknowledging that "OMFG DR0GS are t3H SATAN!!!!11!!", prohibition is costly and vastly innefective for no reason?

EDIT 2: I think it's true that the law wasn't much enforced even before, but still figures between 25-35% are standard for almost all Western countries, regardless of legal status.

	11-02-2005 07:41									#123
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Kid, you're making huge assumptions about the economics of drugs, such as the demand for drugs being relatively elastic and the demand function not significantly changing with legalization, and not providing any sort of empirical corroboration for your claims. All the evidence we have - from alcohol Prohibition in the US to the recent legalization and decriminalization experiments in Europe that suggest otherwise; that legalization doesn't lead to massive increase increases in drug use, and thus your assumptions are wrong.

But let's suppose that you're right.

Since drugs would be relatively elastic, if we legalize them and raise taxes on them high enough, consumption would also go down considerably. Not only that, we'd virtually eliminate the black market for drugs - markets with practically no protection for consumers, labor, competition, or innocent bystanders. We'd free hundreds of thousands of people from prisons and reduce the need for police considerably. As a consequence of that, we'd reduce gov't expenditures by countless billions. And we'd increase gov't revenues due to these excise taxes by a similarly huge amount. Further, some of this money could be spent on actually helping the poor drug addicts instead of locking them up. Doesn't that sound so much better than the draconian policies that our gov't is pushing?

	11-02-2005 07:43									#124
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Incidentally Kid, since you believe that pot should be illegal, surely you believe that alcohol and tobacco, both worse drugs, should be illegal as well?

	11-02-2005 07:51									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Kid, you're making huge assumptions about the economics of drugs, such as the demand for drugs being relatively elastic and the demand function not significantly changing with legalization

I didn't say the demand was elastic, but I don't believe the demand curve changes with legalization. That means that people want drugs because they are illegal, and I don't find that a reasonable assumption. And I don't really care about this that much to do research.

quote: But let's suppose that you're right. Since drugs would be relatively elastic, if we legalize them and raise taxes on them high enough, consumption would also go down considerably. Not only that, we'd virtually eliminate the black market for drugs - markets with practically no protection for consumers, labor, competition, or innocent bystanders. We'd free hundreds of thousands of people from prisons and reduce the need for police considerably. As a consequence of that, we'd reduce gov't expenditures by countless billions. And we'd increase gov't revenues due to these excise taxes by a similarly huge amount. Further, some of this money could be spent on actually helping the poor drug addicts instead of locking them up. Doesn't that sound so much better than the draconian policies that our gov't is pushing?

If the demand is elastic though that would mean that a lot more people whould be using drugs, and that's not acceptable to very many people.

	11-02-2005 07:51									#126
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quote: True, but don't you think that at least it demonstrates that legalization has little or no effect on consumption?

No. I'm sure legalization will result in greater consumption (a little bit more, but more nonetheless). I think in order to show the status of legalization having an effect on consumption, I've have to see some sort of statistical inverse correlation (legalization, then less consumption).

quote: Not only that, we'd virtually eliminate the black market for drugs - markets with practically no protection for consumers, labor, competition, or innocent bystanders.

And of course (maybe it doesn't even have to be said) destroy much of organized crime in an instant.

	11-02-2005 07:53									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Incidentally Kid, since you believe that pot should be illegal, surely you believe that alcohol and tobacco, both worse drugs, should be illegal as well?

I'm definitely opposed to hard drugs being legalized, but only moderately opposed to marijuana, alcohol, and tobacco being legal.

	11-02-2005 07:55									#128
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quote: I didn't say the demand was elastic, but I don't believe the demand curve changes with legalization. That means that people want drugs because they are illegal, and I don't find that a reasonable assumption. And I don't really care about this that much to do research.

If demand isn't very elastic how is legalization going to create more poverty than Reagan, as you claimed?

quote: If the demand is elastic though that would mean that a lot more people whould be using drugs, and that's not acceptable to very many people.

Don't see what your point is...?

	11-02-2005 07:57									#129
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quote: I'm definitely opposed to hard drugs being legalized, but only moderately opposed to marijuana, alcohol, and tobacco being legal.

You never drink alcohol?

	11-02-2005 08:00									#130
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OB

quote: It's documented that the percentage of marijuana consumers in the Netherlands went from 32% to 27% after the legalization. In other countries where it remained illegal, like Canada, it rose.

Does that include immigrants who moved into the country because of the greater freedom? The concern of legalising drugs in a small part of a landmass with lots of people is concentrating one group of people. For example, imagine if booze was banned in north America except for Central Park in NYC. I imagine we'd see a big jump in the number of booze drinkers move to NYC and Central Park would become booze alley.

	11-02-2005 08:01									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo quote: I didn't say the demand was elastic, but I don't believe the demand curve changes with legalization. That means that people want drugs because they are illegal, and I don't find that a reasonable assumption. And I don't really care about this that much to do research. If demand isn't very elastic how is legalization going to create more poverty than Reagan, as you claimed?

Good Point.

quote: quote: If the demand is elastic though that would mean that a lot more people whould be using drugs, and that's not acceptable to very many people. Don't see what your point is...?

If demand is elastic then a drop in the price will result in much more consumption. We already agree that it's not elastic, so nevermind.

	11-02-2005 08:02									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo quote: I'm definitely opposed to hard drugs being legalized, but only moderately opposed to marijuana, alcohol, and tobacco being legal. You never drink alcohol?

I've done a lot of things.

	11-02-2005 08:05									#133
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If you drink booze Kid, should booze drinkers be punished because of drunk drivers who kill people or drunk husbands and wives who abuse each other and their children?

	11-02-2005 08:07									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker If you drink booze Kid, should booze drinkers be punished because of drunk drivers who kill people or drunk husbands and wives who abuse each other and their children?

I'm opposed to legalizing booze. That's not really punishment though.

	11-02-2005 08:12									#135
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Would that mean decriminalisation of booze with only dealers punished? Basically what happened under alcohol prohibition?

	11-02-2005 08:18									#136
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Actually, I'm kind of walking the line on booze, because it's so popular already.

	11-02-2005 08:19									#137
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In fact I think there are some beers in the fridge.

	11-02-2005 08:20									#138
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Actually there were no more beers

	11-02-2005 08:25									#139
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Seriously Kid, if drug demand is relatively inelastic, how do the many benefits to legalization not outweight the costs?

	11-02-2005 08:29									#140
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Drugs have very bad effects. Especially drugs like crack, crank, heroine.

	11-02-2005 08:31									#141
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So do prisons. They have very bad effects too.

But again, the point is that with legalization, drug consumption wouldn't greatly increase if demand is inelastic.

	11-02-2005 08:33									#142
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Let me ask you this. If murder only increased a little bit when you legalized it would you support legalization of that?

	11-02-2005 08:39									#143
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If it means half a million people fewer people in prison, a huge decline in organized crime, protections for labor and consumers in a major industries, etc., etc., absolutely. Why not?

Let me ask you a similar question: should the gov't drastically reduce our civil liberties - scrap the Bill of Rights - especially the 4th Amendment, etc. It would likely reduce the murder rate; probably not by a large amount, but some. Is that large loss in liberty worth the marginal decrease in the murder rate?

	11-02-2005 08:45									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo If it means half a million people fewer people in prison, a huge decline in organized crime, protections for labor and consumers in a major industries, etc., etc., absolutely. Why not? Let me ask you a similar question: should the gov't drastically reduce our civil liberties - scrap the Bill of Rights - especially the 4th Amendment, etc. It would likely reduce the murder rate; probably not by a large amount, but some. Is that large loss in liberty worth the marginal decrease in the murder rate?

No but something as immoral as murder should be illegal. Otherwise murderers walk among us murdering people and no one can do anything about it but run away - assuming that people do not murder the murderers since the murder rate would be lower. Do you actually want that?

edit: oops I forgot that we were originally assuming the murder rate increased a little, but you get my point.

	11-02-2005 08:50									#145
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As long as the murder rate would increase only marginally and all those great things happen, absolutely. That seems like an excellent bargain to me. Obviously, that's not a realistic situation for murder, but if that were the case I'd opt for that without hesitation. The thing is, it is true for drugs.

	11-02-2005 08:52									#146
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So why don't you want to axe the Bill of Rights? There would be slightly fewer murderers on the streets. As is, the gov't can't do anything against some major murdering gangsters etc. due to lack of evidence. Without that irritating 4th amendment, we could nab them. Right, Kid?

	11-02-2005 08:54									#147
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There is something irrational about that. That's not my kind of civilization. People need to get what they deserve. The victims deserve that. The same thing goes for drugs. If your kid overdoses on drugs you deserve some justice.

	11-02-2005 08:55									#148
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IOW, you want pointless revenge. Bloodlust. That's not my kind of civilization.

	11-02-2005 08:56									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo So why don't you want to axe the Bill of Rights? There would be slightly fewer murderers on the streets. As is, the gov't can't do anything against some major murdering gangsters etc. due to lack of evidence. Without that irritating 4th amendment, we could nab them. Right, Kid?

No. I'm not sure why you are saying that I would want to axe the Bill of Rights. I don't want to pay any cost to stop murder. I only want some rationality to society.

	11-02-2005 08:56									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo IOW, you want pointless revenge. Bloodlust. That's not my kind of civilization.

I don't see it as pointless.