11-02-2005 09:00									#151
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It doesn't serve to reduce drug overdoes very much, if at all, and it eliminates the aforementioned benefits that legalization would bring. What's the point? It's revenge. That's irrational.

	11-02-2005 09:04									#152
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Most people do not want to have drugs sold in stores. That bothers them, just like they wouldn't want murderers to go scott free, even if it meant that the murder rate would only go up a little bit. Do you see the value in that - having these things illegal?

	11-02-2005 09:08									#153
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No, I don't. I consider revenge immoral. Incarceration of drug dealers would cause a decrease in human liberty in a great number of respects, without an appreciable gain in others. That makes it wrong IMO.

	11-02-2005 09:12									#154
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This might be redundant, but do you not get the slightest bit of relief when a person is convicted of murder who you know is guilty? Isn't there a part of you that is glad for his consequences just because you feel that he deserves them?

	11-02-2005 09:16									#155
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Sometimes. You know, I've had rape fantasies before. Just because I have certain feelings at times, doesn't mean that those feelings are moral, or that I should act on them.

Every loss in freedom, in life is wrong. That sort of thing shouldn't happen for petty reasons.

	11-02-2005 10:14									#156
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drug use might not decrease if its legalised, but murders, and organized crime will decrease significantly, and to be able to go outside without getting caught in a drive by or a crossfire is good enough, for the innocneet, and for the jails, where we can now lock up real criminals, instead of letting rapists go after 3 years to make room for a marijuana user like what happened in minnesota or one of those states in the midwest.

	11-02-2005 10:28									#157
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Say we legalized drugs. Save for you crackheads, we all know that the result would be more drug addicion - more crackheads who don't feed their children - more people who don't show up for work, get fired and become homeless - more people stoned out of their mind 24/7, etc. How can that not be immoral?

You seem to be confusing two sets of consequences. If drugs are legalised, they will be a lot cheaper - like cigarettes and alcohol now. There may be more people using the stuff - but its not going to break the bank.

As for not showing up to work, neglecting children, etc., you already have the same problem with tobacco and alcohol, yet nobody is (except some insane fundies I reckon) pushing to outlaw them. We all know keeping the stuff legal and regulated is the best way to control these substances.

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious You want to do it for your freedom. So you want something for it. You want others to suffer for what you call freedom. How can that not be immoral?

On the contrary, Kid. Shiploads of money have been spent on this "War on Drugs" with very little effect. If drugs are legalised, not only this money could be used elsewhere, say, education, but a lot of other drug-related problems can be solved with no effort at all.

	11-02-2005 10:30									#158
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Most people do not want to have drugs sold in stores. That bothers them

Again, what's the difference between these drugs and tobacco and alcohol? None.

Remember, nicotine is hellishly addictive, more so than cocaine and heroin.

	11-02-2005 10:37									#159
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the question to ask is "has alcohol legalisation led to drunks 24/7?"

if the answer is yes, then we should prohibit drugs

if the answer is no, then we should legalize it.

	11-02-2005 12:01									#160
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Kid

quote: In fact I think there are some beers in the fridge

Are you guilty of immorality for "contributing" to the harm to society "caused" by booze?

quote: Let me ask you this. If murder only increased a little bit when you legalized it would you support legalization of that?

Of course not, murder violates the life and liberty of a victim. Your "analogy" requires us to equate drug use with murder and that dog wont hunt. If I use pot or if you sell me a bag of pot, neither of us have violated the life or liberty of anyone else. Punishing us violates our liberty though, so ironically you as the punisher would have more in common with the murderer than you would selling me a bag of pot.

Btw, you still haven't explained how you are harming society by selling or giving me a bag of pot.

quote: If your kid overdoses on drugs you deserve some justice.

If your kid dies because of booze, should ALL alcohol dealers be punished regardless of whether or not they sold your kid drugs? You're still using a generalisation to punish the innocent because of the guilty.

	11-02-2005 19:07									#161
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Sometimes. You know, I've had rape fantasies before. Just because I have certain feelings at times, doesn't mean that those feelings are moral, or that I should act on them. Every loss in freedom, in life is wrong. That sort of thing shouldn't happen for petty reasons.

Maybe you can explain to me why your sense of morality only comes from your rational brain, and not your gut feeling. Actually, you say here that you get a gut feeling, don't you? But you don't let it affect you decision making.

I need to think about why I allow my gut feelings to make moral decisions for me.

UR

quote: On the contrary, Kid. Shiploads of money have been spent on this "War on Drugs" with very little effect. If drugs are legalised, not only this money could be used elsewhere, say, education, but a lot of other drug-related problems can be solved with no effort at all.

A lot of money is wasted too. The resources are well spent fighting drugs.

quote: Again, what's the difference between these drugs and tobacco and alcohol? None. Remember, nicotine is hellishly addictive, more so than cocaine and heroin.

I think alcohol is a very harmfull drug, but not as bad as heroine or crack or whatever new drug they can come up with.

Berzerker

quote: Are you guilty of immorality for "contributing" to the harm to society "caused" by booze?

Partially responsible. I like to drink. I get a benefit from it, because I'm not an alcoholic.

quote: Of course not, murder violates the life and liberty of a victim. Your "analogy" requires us to equate drug use with murder and that dog wont hunt. If I use pot or if you sell me a bag of pot, neither of us have violated the life or liberty of anyone else. Punishing us violates our liberty though, so ironically you as the punisher would have more in common with the murderer than you would selling me a bag of pot. Btw, you still haven't explained how you are harming society by selling or giving me a bag of pot.

The thing about your idea of freedom is you have a tendency to limit responsibility to those who actually pull the trigger so to speak. People who do immoral things depend on others to do them. Drug dealers depend on users to do what they do. That makes the users partially responsible. You have a duty to society to do what you can within reason. I think refraining from drugs is within reason.

quote: If your kid dies because of booze, should ALL alcohol dealers be punished regardless of whether or not they sold your kid drugs? You're still using a generalisation to punish the innocent because of the guilty.

Again with the 'punish.' I guess you can't help it. Stopping someone from doing something immoral is not punishment. It does'nt matter who the kid bought the alcohol from, all the dealers are guilty.

	11-02-2005 22:44									#162
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious A lot of money is wasted too. The resources are well spent fighting drugs.

No they aren't.

All this "War" has achieved were to create problems where none had existed before, problems such as drug gangs. The only effect of the Prohibition was making the Mafia a powerful force. This other prohibition is making drug gangs a powerful force. Meanwhile, all these resources that can be diverted to other things such as education and drug prevention go down the tubes.

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I think alcohol is a very harmfull drug, but not as bad as heroine or crack or whatever new drug they can come up with.

I am not sure about that. Alcohol has a lot of negative effects, only a bit less bad than tobacco.

	12-02-2005 00:19									#163
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quote: Maybe you can explain to me why your sense of morality only comes from your rational brain, and not your gut feeling. Actually, you say here that you get a gut feeling, don't you? But you don't let it affect you decision making. I need to think about why I allow my gut feelings to make moral decisions for me.

Who said my morality is purely rational? That's not possible, since you need an irrational basis from which to construct a moral system.

I have competing feelings. We all do. There's a part of me that wants revenge, and there's also a part of me that can't stand the suffering of others. I believe that the part of me that feels diminished by that suffering, by the loss of generalized freedom, is the stronger feeling. In other situations (a child is starving, or a person is executed for sedition, etc., etc.), that feeling is even more dominant. Analyzing those sentiments together, I arrive at the conclusion that the loss of generalized freedom is immoral. And thus, the pure revenge of incarcerating drug dealers is immoral.

	12-02-2005 00:26									#164
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But you don't cry over the loss of freedom for the murderer. You have a satisfied feeling for his incarceration - not just because he will not be able to commit the crime again, but you have a feeling of satisfaction due to the fact that he did something unspeakable and now he will pay for it. I'm confused about what you mean by generalized freedom.

	12-02-2005 00:32									#165
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Generalized freedom is a term I use as not to confuse it with Randian/Libertarian freedom.

Part of me gets some satisfaction with his incarceration. But part of me is sad about the loss of his freedom, for the rest of his life. As I said, the latter is generally a stronger sentiment. I ethically justify his incarceration because I think it would lead to fewer people getting killed.

	12-02-2005 00:35									#166
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As I said, I'm sure you've had a rape fantasy before. Most guys have in my experience. Just because part of you, however small, feels like you'd want to do that, does that make it moral, something that you should do?

	12-02-2005 00:39									#167
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I feel remorse not for him, but for society, because of the crime that he commited. We have to punish him which is something that we would rather not do, but not punishing him is something that would make us feel worse.

I don't justify hurting him more than he hurt someone else, or even as much, but I don't consider all people good, so I don't feel remorse for bad people. This might have something to do with how I was raised or it might be a natural tendency with some people.

	12-02-2005 00:41									#168
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo As I said, I'm sure you've had a rape fantasy before. Most guys have in my experience. Just because part of you, however small, feels like you'd want to do that, does that make it moral, something that you should do?

Actually no I have not had a rape fantasy. I've fantasized about using violence against people I hate who do horrible things, and don't feel remorse. I don't really want to use violence, because of the bad feeling I would get otherwise, but a worse thing for me would be letting people get away with those things.

	12-02-2005 00:45									#169
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I don't actually believe in violence as a punishment though. I don't spank my son anymore. I just gave him little spankings when he was 3 and 4.

	12-02-2005 00:50									#170
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This is just a foreign idea to my thinking, that revenge is moral. That it's ok to do deny freedom to "bad people" for no other reason that that they're "bad people."

Why not draw and quarter murderers/drug dealers/"bad people"? Why not cause the maximum possible amount of pain and suffering? If their freedom has absolutely no value, why not go all the way? Why not put them in concentration camps so they could be used as slave labor or guinea pigs for medical testing?

	12-02-2005 00:57									#171
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Why not minimize pain, suffering, etc.? I don't get it. Why deny freedom to people without any benefit to society?

	12-02-2005 04:08									#172
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The problem with Kidicious is that he decided that selling drugs is intrinsically immoral.

Everyone acknowledges that this is a moot point, given that allowing people to sell drugs legally reduce the occurences of problems resulting from drug use.

Tell us, Kiddy, if selling drugs is not bad because of the problems it creates, but rather for another reason, what can it be?

	12-02-2005 05:59									#173
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo This is just a foreign idea to my thinking, that revenge is moral. That it's ok to do deny freedom to "bad people" for no other reason that that they're "bad people." Why not draw and quarter murderers/drug dealers/"bad people"? Why not cause the maximum possible amount of pain and suffering? If their freedom has absolutely no value, why not go all the way? Why not put them in concentration camps so they could be used as slave labor or guinea pigs for medical testing?

Well they are bad people, but they are still people.

	12-02-2005 06:09									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris The problem with Kidicious is that he decided that selling drugs is intrinsically immoral. Everyone acknowledges that this is a moot point, given that allowing people to sell drugs legally reduce the occurences of problems resulting from drug use. Tell us, Kiddy, if selling drugs is not bad because of the problems it creates, but rather for another reason, what can it be?

I don't really like to be called Kiddy. People call me that who don't really like me. Kid is ok. And I think it is intrinsically immoral. Some people don't just want to think about the consequences of their actions. When I'm drinking a beer I don't think about drunk drivers killing a family in their car. If I did I wouldn't enjoy it.

	12-02-2005 06:09									#175
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Right, they're still people. So why take away their freedom if it doesn't benefit society?

	12-02-2005 07:36									#176
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Kid

quote: Partially responsible. I like to drink. I get a benefit from it, because I'm not an alcoholic.

But you drink booze and want to punish people who use drugs you don't like because they are "partially responsible". And dont dodge me with "it isn't punishment" You said drug users must be "prevented" from using drugs because they are "partially responsible" for harming society and that this responsibility makes their drug use immoral, but your admitted "partial responsibility" makes your use of booze immoral for the same reason so why shouldn't you be "prevented" from using booze.

quote: The thing about your idea of freedom is you have a tendency to limit responsibility to those who actually pull the trigger so to speak.

You mean the people who are guilty? Imagine that

quote: People who do immoral things depend on others to do them. Drug dealers depend on users to do what they do. That makes the users partially responsible.

For what? Buy their products just like everyone else with something to sell? Thats what drug dealers want, Mr Miller and his friend Bud told me so. Sounds like you just cant avoid using generalisations instead of explaining why you have harmed society by selling me a bag of pot. You wouldn't think so highly of generalisations if someone did something bad to you because you drink booze (or because of your skin color).

quote: You have a duty to society to do what you can within reason. I think refraining from drugs is within reason.

Ah, this "social contract" again? Why is selling me tobacco or booze "within reason" but not pot? What should be your punishment for slavery?

quote: Again with the 'punish.' I guess you can't help it. Stopping someone from doing something immoral is not punishment. It does'nt matter who the kid bought the alcohol from, all the dealers are guilty.

Then all alcohol dealers are guilty when a kid overdoses and justice demands you be punished for your responsibility as a booze drinker. And yes, making pot illegal punishes the people involved - its taking away their freedom based on someone else's actions (and thats immoral). What are you going to do to the people who get the pot inspite of your efforts to prevent them? Punish them by taking away their freedom until they learn to follow your instructions? Just how do you plan on enforcing this law without punishment? You said drug use wasn't immoral and now you're assuming it is for your argument.

	12-02-2005 07:40									#177
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Right, they're still people. So why take away their freedom if it doesn't benefit society?

Best answer I can give you is that it makes people feel like there is some sense to society. People want to have a moral govt. They don't like immoral things to be legal, unless they are petty. I see your point, but it doesn't change my mind.

	12-02-2005 07:44									#178
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quote: But you don't cry over the loss of freedom for the murderer.

Still equating murder with drug use?

quote: When I'm drinking a beer I don't think about drunk drivers killing a family in their car. If I did I wouldn't enjoy it.

Doesn't your justice require you be "prevented" from drinking booze?

	12-02-2005 07:57									#179
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Kid But you drink booze and want to punish people who use drugs you don't like because they are "partially responsible". And dont dodge me with "it isn't punishment" You said drug users must be "prevented" from using drugs because they are "partially responsible" for harming society and that this responsibility makes their drug use immoral, but your admitted "partial responsibility" makes your use of booze immoral for the same reason so why shouldn't you be "prevented" from using booze.

First, making something illegal is not punishing people. You are partially responsible for doing immoral things, but you aren't being punished when are prevented from doing those things. You are punished when they are illegal and you do them anyway. You libertarians really have such problems with simple words.

Second, the reason the I said that I was 'on the line' about booze' is because making it illegal is not really feazable. I would like it to be illegal if it were feazable.

quote: For what? Buy their products just like everyone else with something to sell? Thats what drug dealers want, Mr Miller and his friend Bud told me so. Sounds like you just cant avoid using generalisations instead of explaining why you have harmed society by selling me a bag of pot. You wouldn't think so highly of generalisations if someone did something bad to you because you drink booze (or because of your skin color).

I did explain it to you. Drugs are available because people use them and sell them. By using drugs you become part of that and so you are responsible.

quote: Ah, this "social contract" again? Why is selling me tobacco or booze "within reason" but not pot? What should be your punishment for slavery?

Like I said, I think selling alcohol and tobacco is horrible. It's socially acceptable so what can we do? I shouldn't drink booze or smoke pot, but I do sometimes. I've cut back a lot, partially because I see what it contributes to.

quote: Then all alcohol dealers are guilty when a kid overdoses and justice demands you be punished for your responsibility as a booze drinker. And yes, making pot illegal punishes the people involved - its taking away their freedom based on someone else's actions (and thats immoral). What are you going to do to the people who get the pot inspite of your efforts to prevent them? Punish them by taking away their freedom until they learn to follow your instructions? Just how do you plan on enforcing this law without punishment? You said drug use wasn't immoral and now you're assuming it is for your argument.

I'm not even close to believing that making it illegal to sell drugs is taking away someones freedom.

	12-02-2005 08:02									#180
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Doesn't your justice require you be "prevented" from drinking booze?

Do you think there is anyone in the world who doesn't violate their own code of morality? I don't drink much. I don't think it's the worst thing in the world to do. I cuss in front of my son sometimes, and now he cusses. I knew it was wrong, but I still did it, because it's not really that big of a deal.