08-02-2005 06:31									#1
	Turn Orders: 3950bc Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

McM, please edit this liberally; I'm just starting with what we talked about.

Oh, and when you get and play save #2, please feel free to name the workers things - i'd rather they have names so i can call them something other than 'worker 8.1' ...
Notation: (Unit) (Dir from capital).(Number)

Worker 8.1: irrigate
Worker 8.2: road
Settler 9: Build city (Capital) (Name = _________)
Settler 2: 2
Settler 3: 3
Warrior 4: 4 or 1 or 7
Warrior 6: 6 (heading out east)

Attaching a screenshot of the end of last turn again (clean one).

Attachment: start_done_exploring_clean.jpg
This has been downloaded 17 time(s).

	08-02-2005 06:31									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

What we talked about, with a bit of my opinion thrown in for a bonus :
Settler 2's purpose is to found a city on that second square or 3 from there depending on the situation it finds.

Settler 3's purpose is to found a city 6 from there, to serve as a worker pump.

Warrior 6 will continue east, bypassing the goodie hut until we have archers to kill barbs with.

Warrior 4 will head west; I suggest southwest, as more map is that direction (and more likely a civ), but it doesn't matter much which.

	08-02-2005 22:44									#3
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

That grouping of forests to the west will be another nice city for some quick builds with forest-chop once we get a city over there.

In any case I concur with everything except the destination of settler 2. Yes it has already started south, but I think the forest location to the west is a much better 2nd or 3rd city location for our designated archer-rush attempt. Several forest-chops will make for much quicker barracks and archer builds. Settling on that desert tile to the south is good, but it will take a little while before those bonus grasslands can be worked to provide as much shield output as early forest chops can do.

	09-02-2005 00:25									#4
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

-snik-
Rhot, you are my man. And actually Platy is too. The discussion on this matter was bitterly disturbed at 1:30 am (for me) when MSN crashed for all 3 of us.

I then caved into Snoops proposal to cut things short. His arguments are not too bad either. With 3 bonus grass tiles available the city overthere will grow and produce quite allright and doesn't need much improvement at first (when we're busy chopping the capital in shape).

However 44 was still my favourite spot too.

quote: McM, please edit this liberally; I'm just starting with what we talked about.

I'll get the naming done.


Issues for now
1. Name for the capital. I propose AbbA or aBBa.

2. Build to start with. Barracks, has been mentioned before. Anyone opposing? We allready have 2 warriors in the field to explore and we'll have this up in 5 turns 4*2+12 for an extra chop.

3. tech to start with. We more or less allready agreed it's going to be pottery, let's make it official.

4. Slider at 100% science (or at least as much as is efficient)

5. Moving warrior 4 (as it is named at the moment). Warrior 4 is proposed to move another 4. We just have to look at that spot .

6. Does everybody have acces to the forums?
a. I have had an email from Andy. He's eager to participate, but is kept busy at the moment. He'll step in eventually. However he was not ablke to find these threads yesterday.
b. Our secret agent, Alexman should be able to read and give advice if he desires. He did not want to participate in a committed manner (reads as being an official member). Nonetheless he's allready been a valuable evaluator of ideas.

It will take a while before it's our turn again. From this I conclude that the first turn should have been 36 hours, after which the 12 hour time cap should be introduced.

	09-02-2005 00:38									#5
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by McMeadows I then caved into Snoops proposal to cut things short. His arguments are not too bad either. With 3 bonus grass tiles available the city overthere will grow and produce quite allright and doesn't need much improvement at first (when we're busy chopping the capital in shape). However 44 was still my favourite spot too.

Yeah, the desert spot will be good down the road, probably for a fourth city dependent on what else we discover in the coming turns, but 4-4 of our original starting location is a far stronger location for quickly putting out a barracks and archers which is what our early strategy is dependent on.

quote: Issues for now 1. Name for the capital. I propose AbbA or aBBa. 2. below 3. tech to start with. We more or less allready agreed it's going to be pottery, let's make it official. 4. Slider at 100% science (or at least as much as is efficient) 5. Moving warrior 4 (as it is named at the moment). Warrior 4 is proposed to move another 4. We just have to look at that spot .

It all sounds good to me.

quote: 2. Build to start with. Barracks, has been mentioned before. Anyone opposing? We allready have 2 warriors in the field to explore and we'll have this up in 5 turns 4*2+12 for an extra chop.

I like the barracks first, but I'm not sure if a forest chop is the way to go with this. We would end up wasting shields. First off, we'll have three shields to work with (one from the capital, two from the cow). Second it would take another turn for the worker to get to the forest before he can even begin chopping. Four nominal turns to chop (three before we actually get the shields because of the way it works in PBEMs) and that means we end up with 25 shields for a 20 shield barracks. I'd much rather time the start of the chop so it ends up going toward our first archer rather than going toward the barracks.

This is why I want to set up a sim soon and we can work out the MOI orders for the next 20 or so turns.

quote: 6. Does everybody have acces to the forums? a. I have had an email from Andy. He's eager to participate, but is kept busy at the moment. He'll step in eventually. However he was not ablke to find these threads yesterday. b. Our secret agent, Alexman should be able to read and give advice if he desires. He did not want to participate in a committed manner (reads as being an official member). Nonetheless he's allready been a valuable evaluator of ideas.

I don't think Andydog is currently part of the civgroup list so he'll have to join before snoop can authorize him.

Also, Dominae wants to join all civgroups to have a look at what everyone is up to. I think it is a good idea to have someone who has access to everything (since the game admins OPD and UnO won't). In the original PTWDG we have had several savegame errors creep up and Trip (the admin for the game) has been able to deal with them. Without him fixing those errors would not have been an easy process.

	09-02-2005 03:00									#6
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Rhothaerill ...we'll have three shields to work with (one from the capital, two from the cow)....

Ouch... I forgot about the extra shield for the cow. Only thought about the food.

On the sim issue. I tried to think through the first 30 turns around the capital. I think that should classify a sim or scenario. Too bad you didn't have a look at it and reported the error earlier. I'll have another go at it going from the current situation.

	09-02-2005 03:34									#7
	Increase Your PM Length

By sim I mean creating a new map in the editor based on the same parameters as this one and then running with that one. It takes a bit of time to do, but it reduces the the problems of trying to figure timing (the worker turn difference between PBEM and SP), corruption, etc. in one's head.

I can't do it tonight, but I might be able to set one up tomorrow night and run through a few turns.

	10-02-2005 07:11									#8
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

The desert spot still has 2 forest chops in its radius, don't forget (77 and 78) if it's built at 22 (as it will be presumably, rather than 223). I defended it largely because not only does it become a useful city right away vs. much later with workers needed to chop the forest, but also because it is initially a much better REX city- if we don't go hardcore for the military archer rush, the bonus grasslands are very useful ...

Anywho a sim should clear that up.

	12-02-2005 04:58									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I dont know enough of ABBA to comment

Just for silly Sake names for cities: Bruce

then number them Bruce1, Bruce 2

	12-02-2005 05:55									#10
	3950 BC being played Suffering from ads?

Allrighty I have received the save and have started playing it. Despite all the care that I took to plan the moves in my excel sheet I just started to doubt if the irrigation will be finished in time. Could somebody post a confirmation?

worker 1: was allready instructed to build road on ivory
worker 2: to be instructed ROADING or IRRIGATION
worker 3: started on irrigating the cow
warrior 1: moved another 4 to find a beautifull city site
warrior 2: moved another 6 exploring the east
settler 1: moved another 2 to find desert, plain, hill
settler 2: moved another 3
settler 3: founded AbbA

AbbA (2 food, 1 shield, 3 commerce) instructed to build barracks
workforce on the cow 2 food, 2 shields, 1 commerce
pottery @ 90% science in 13 turns.

Attached the view for the surroundings.

The issue on assiging worker 2.
Worker 3 started irrigation this turn which is a 3 turn effort. However, worker effort is effected at the end of a turn (the road build by worker 1 was allready finished when I founded AbbA, which therefore has the ivory connected). Food is added at the start of a turn.

3950 BC irrigation part 1
3900 BC +2 food, irrigation part 2
3850 BC +2 food, irrigation part 3 = finishing
3800 BC +3 food
2+2+3*6=22

And that would cost us a turn of growth. Therefore I'm proposing to have worker 2 work on irrigation as well. It will cost us a worker turn, but we have have some excess now that the cow tile produces 1 shield more then I thought (which resulted in the waste that Rhot and Snoop encountered. My bad, will figure it out soon)

3950 BC irrigation part 1+2
3900 BC +2 food, irrrigation part 3 = finished + lost turn
3850 BC +3 food
-> 2+3*6=20

I'll leave my labtop on while I go to sleep now and will read in the morning if I'm right on having worker 2 also irrigate the cow. Then I'll send the save (in time) to Paddy.

In the main forum Conqueror posted at 11-02-2005 23:18:26, so I'll have untill 11:!5 (GMT+1). I can have a decent sleep .

Only 2 teams have founded a city on turn 1 (Lost Boys and Ankh-Morpork). We are number 2 on GNP (4 M) and number 2 on productivity (9). Everything else we're number 1.

Good night...
McM

Attachment: overview - 3950 bc.jpg
This has been downloaded 9 time(s).

	12-02-2005 09:35									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I agree, double irrigate.

Don't worry about chopping quite as much as your sheet indicated, either. The biggest problem I noticed with it from the sim was that you get no improvements on the other 2 cities until later on. One worker finishing the main improvements and then heading over to the second and third cities (particularly the worker pump) would be helpful; the worker pump can't pump without an irrigated floodplains or two, and could use a mined bonus grassland to provide some shields.

	13-02-2005 15:20									#12
	Remove this text

you are something else McMeadows