08-02-2005 07:49									#1
	Are Spies Overpowered?! Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Everyone:

I tend to think so. How many units can ignore ZOCs and come in and steal, willy-nilly, whatever the hell they want? Damn AI. I could have two to four veteran spies defending each and every one of my cities, and if the AI wants a damn tech, it's going to get it.

Spies are overpowered. I've tried to "downgrade" the damn things by forcing them to obey ZOCs and making them more expensive, but the AI still sneaks them in and takes whatever it pleases, regardless of my own spies.

Heh. I just "love" how an AI Industrial Age power can become a space power overnight by simply taking three or four techs from you — regardless of whether or not it as the precursor techs to what it's stolen — and start building starships. It's damn aggravating.

What other methods, short of excising the spy unit, exist to depower these ridiculously overpowered units?

Gatekeeper

	08-02-2005 08:48									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Spies are the most powerful units in the game -- just ask La Fayette.

Nowadays I mostly manage enemy spies by keeping AI civs from surviving to espionage.

But if you're playing spaceship games, or giving the AI advantages in order to keep them strong into the late game, I think one of the best defenses is to make their transit difficult. In my experience, they don't come by boat very often, so all you have to do is make sure that the path to your cities is blocked by units, and the off-path is unroaded rough terrain. They come in and have to stop, and then you get to stick bamboo under their fingernails and play Abu Ghraib with them.

	08-02-2005 20:31									#3
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I'm with debeest. Best method of preventing the AI from getting spies is to ignore the tech yourself. Generally, avoiding Communism is a good technique. Always know what the AI is researching so you'll be prepared.

In general, I find that if I don't develop spies, the AI doesn't either.

In a space race, the AI will get very aggressive late, with treaties, tech trades, and yes, tech theft. But if you've done your homework, you should be able to out-produce/out-spend them to win the race to AC.

	09-02-2005 02:47									#4
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by debeest Spies are the most powerful units in the game -- just ask La Fayette. Nowadays I mostly manage enemy spies by keeping AI civs from surviving to espionage. But if you're playing spaceship games, or giving the AI advantages in order to keep them strong into the late game, I think one of the best defenses is to make their transit difficult. In my experience, they don't come by boat very often, so all you have to do is make sure that the path to your cities is blocked by units, and the off-path is unroaded rough terrain. They come in and have to stop, and then you get to stick bamboo under their fingernails and play Abu Ghraib with them.

I've done that. Used to be, I never built forts around my cities ... but that changed when I figured out it was the only way to keep diplomats and spies from getting too close to one's cities (and I put at least two units in each fort, to prevent the AI from "converting" them to its side).

That, I agree, is the best way to keep them at arm's length. Only problem is, then they sit there, and the AI gets pissed off and attacks eventually. I suppose I could build the forts right next to my cities, that way I can boot the AI diplomats/spies out of my territory w/o instigating a war. But I'm a man of aesthetics! Forts hugging cities look ugly!

Gatekeeper

	09-02-2005 02:53									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by -Jrabbit I'm with debeest. Best method of preventing the AI from getting spies is to ignore the tech yourself. Generally, avoiding Communism is a good technique. Always know what the AI is researching so you'll be prepared. In general, I find that if I don't develop spies, the AI doesn't either. In a space race, the AI will get very aggressive late, with treaties, tech trades, and yes, tech theft. But if you've done your homework, you should be able to out-produce/out-spend them to win the race to AC.

That's the problem — I'm typically outproducing and outresearching most, if not all, of the AIs by the time of the space race. Hence their need to try and steal from me. And you're not kidding about aggressiveness ... the AI will not talk to you once the race has started, even if you're gradually kicking its butt in if you're at war with it (I just finished fighting a war of attrition with Russia, rather than my usual blitzkrieg style. End result was the same, though. ).

Hmm. Even if I don't go after communism or espionage, though, one or more of the AI powers does. I've never had a game where they didn't. I suppose one could "downgrade" a tech's attractiveness by messing with the RULES.TXT file, but some things should be kept sacred. Besides, I've customized it enough in an effort to keep the AI competitive into the latter stages of a game (for starters, I got it now so the AI will use cruise missiles against armored divisions, not just ships, and it will attack port cities with missiles as well).

Ah, well. All in all, it's still a good game. Just aggravating at times!

Gatekeeper

	09-02-2005 20:01									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I dont think the AI uses spies at all very well. Any AI civ can be overtaken if you just build enough of them. attack the water supply (i've found about %50 survive this act to attack again). easiest way to wipe out any AI civ. those that survive become vet - destroy the city walls when the pop reaches 1... destroys the city itself.

	09-02-2005 20:21									#7
	Increase the size of your Attachments

"New" posters: Gatekeeper and MWHC
Welcome

Yes, spies (and especially vet spies ) are overpowered (... and you didn't mention their most terrifying power: planting nukes, even in cities with SDI defence).

A nice way to take that into account is to make them 10 times more costly. That is what sezoN did when he built the so-called "Game of the month III edition - February 2005" that you can find on this forum. I strongly advise you to have a try, because it is a VERY fun game.

	10-02-2005 04:36									#8
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by My Wife Hates CIV I dont think the AI uses spies at all very well. Any AI civ can be overtaken if you just build enough of them. attack the water supply (i've found about %50 survive this act to attack again). easiest way to wipe out any AI civ. those that survive become vet - destroy the city walls when the pop reaches 1... destroys the city itself.

Heh. The way I play the game, there usually ends up being at least one gargantuan AI hyperpower toward the end (usually formed by an aggressive civ gobbling up its neighbors). So unless I'm willing to invest in a couple hundred spies — and I'm usually not — poisoning the AI to death simply isn't an endgame option. But, yes, I do poison on occasion, because it makes bribing a city cheaper (either that or simply take out half its defenders; that lowers the bribe cost as well).

Gatekeeper

	10-02-2005 04:40									#9
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by La Fayette "New" posters: Gatekeeper and MWHC Welcome

*waves cane indigently* I been heah before, ya whippersnapper!

quote: Yes, spies (and especially vet spies ) are overpowered (... and you didn't mention their most terrifying power: planting nukes, even in cities with SDI defence).

I've never had an AI spy try to nuke my cities. Is it possible? I typically play at the king and emperor levels, and have never seen it.

quote: A nice way to take that into account is to make them 10 times more costly. That is what sezoN did when he built the so-called "Game of the month III edition - February 2005" that you can find on this forum. I strongly advise you to have a try, because it is a VERY fun game.

Been there, done that. Admittedly, perhaps not 10 times as costly as they usually are, but somewhere around 120 shields or so. Might it be better to make 'em cost 600 shields, the same as a modern-age Wonder?

Gatekeeper

	10-02-2005 05:38									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Everyone:

How about this: What if I gave my spies and diplomats alpine ability (treat all squares as roads) and reduced their movement point to 1. Would that be a favorable trade-off from the current movement point of 2, but *no* alpine ability? In either scenario, I'd keep the flag that gives them two-space visbility. (I toggled off the "ignore ZOC" flag ages ago.)

Gatekeeper

	10-02-2005 05:43									#11
	Got spare money?

I prefer to stop the spies from getting near my cities. I prefer to use a spare bomber or two and kill/expel, before getting close. (interestingly I usually discover advanced flight before esp.)

	10-02-2005 20:06									#12
	Remove this text

What problem with spies? Aren't you defending with trucks? If you're 20 techs ahead, so what if they get one or two?

If, on the other hand, you're playing a "slow" game to allow the ai to get modern techs and make the challenge interesting, again so what? Isn't it interesting to have an ai just that bit more advanced? Not to mention the opportunity for some justification for a visit....in force.

	11-02-2005 00:14									#13
	Tired of ads?

Well, I'm usually behind in technology, spending all my efforts to expand, expand, expand (I'm always playing on 100x100 maps, and there are just too many grassland fields to expand to for me to resist),
so it's usually me who's stealing techs and becoming a space exploration overnight, much to the AI's dismay.
For me, the problem does not exist
You have to be a good player to experience it.


And if I'm playing Mongol Horde-styled game, well, the problem does not exist either.

	12-02-2005 06:13									#14
	Increase Your PM Length

I find that spies are one of the most powerful units in the game as well, it's why I make so many of them myself.

In most diety games, the majority of total science research is done for me by ai civs. I reserve setting the tax rate to favor science for those few choice tech races, and usually rely on my diplomats and spies for the basics.

I suppose that spies could have their abilities limited though to reduce their potency.

	12-02-2005 19:42									#15
	Suffering from ads?

I find Spies useful and they probably are overpowered, when you consider all the functions they have. However, I don't find myself using them all that often. That's probably due to being fairly far ahead, techwise... and not needing to poison/nuke AI cities. Certainly the bribe function is useful, but it gets expensive.

AI Spies would be a lot nastier if the AI wasn't so predictable.

	13-02-2005 11:11									#16
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by atomant I prefer to stop the spies from getting near my cities. I prefer to use a spare bomber or two and kill/expel, before getting close. (interestingly I usually discover advanced flight before esp.)

Nowadays, I typically fortify my borders with other nations and/or build forts in the cardinal directions of my cities. That's usually effective in keeping spies out, as I changed it so they had to obey ZOC. The only "bad" side effect to that is if they're just outside your territory, stuck at your fort, you can' expel them w/o starting a war. And when you don't expel them, they sit there, and the AI gradually gets ticked off to the point where it typically attacks. Sometimes that's OK, particularly if one has a few dozen (or more) howies, bombers, fighters and armored divisions built up. You can kill the AI's spies and take its cities. Heh. Kill two birds with one stone.

Gatekeeper

	13-02-2005 11:15									#17
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Old n Slow What problem with spies? Aren't you defending with trucks? If you're 20 techs ahead, so what if they get one or two?

Because, more often than not, it's your most advanced techs the AI conveniently steals. I resent it when an AI civ that's just discovered industrialization can come in and steal robotics, and be spitting out howies the same turn. But the biggest issue of all is pride — I *earned* my techs and great, sprawling civ and, as such, seeing the AI get away with murder is annoying beyond all belief. Yes, yes, it's just a simplistic, mid-1990s program. But STILL ... pride, man, pride.

quote: If, on the other hand, you're playing a "slow" game to allow the ai to get modern techs and make the challenge interesting, again so what? Isn't it interesting to have an ai just that bit more advanced? Not to mention the opportunity for some justification for a visit....in force.

Again, pride. And, yes, I've crushed an entire AI civilization in one fell swoop on occasion when it was dumb enough to steal a tech and was linked to my civilization via rail lines. (Or roads ... in which case I simply have a reservoir of engineers waiting to convert key roads to rails.)

Gatekeeper

	13-02-2005 11:18									#18
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Heresson Well, I'm usually behind in technology, spending all my efforts to expand, expand, expand (I'm always playing on 100x100 maps, and there are just too many grassland fields to expand to for me to resist), so it's usually me who's stealing techs and becoming a space exploration overnight, much to the AI's dismay. For me, the problem does not exist You have to be a good player to experience it. And if I'm playing Mongol Horde-styled game, well, the problem does not exist either.

Heh. The best of both worlds, eh? I generally am the opposite of you — I like being the most advanced on the block, and I "farm" the AI civs so they can present a challenge into the modern era (mainly because ancient warfare is so time-consuming, unless one nips them in the bud right away around 4000 BC ... nothing like waltzing into an AI capital in 3000 BC and, voila!, that's that for that particular AI civ ... hmm .... I should do it more often, especially when playing in Europe).

Gatekeeper

	13-02-2005 11:21									#19
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by biru biru I find that spies are one of the most powerful units in the game as well, it's why I make so many of them myself. In most diety games, the majority of total science research is done for me by ai civs. I reserve setting the tax rate to favor science for those few choice tech races, and usually rely on my diplomats and spies for the basics. I suppose that spies could have their abilities limited though to reduce their potency.

Perhaps I should try that style of game. Heh. Advance enough to acquire espionage, then focus on building spies and pair them with freight trucks.

I'm set in my ways, though ... But who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks? Oh, right. The old dog.

Gatekeeper

	13-02-2005 11:25									#20
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man I find Spies useful and they probably are overpowered, when you consider all the functions they have. However, I don't find myself using them all that often. That's probably due to being fairly far ahead, techwise... and not needing to poison/nuke AI cities. Certainly the bribe function is useful, but it gets expensive.

It's about the same here — I station spies in my cities mainly to ward off AI espionage attempts (but it doesn't work all the time, even with vets). I usually avoid nuking AI assets, as I apply real-world sensibilities to my games (sometimes to my own detriment), although the occasional well-poisoning isn't out of the question.

Regarding bribes, I've had some AI cities demand 20,000 gold to flip to my side. Unless you want an international incident, that pretty much makes them unbribeable. Unless you poison them down to size, then bribe 'em!

quote: AI Spies would be a lot nastier if the AI wasn't so predictable.

I've seen AI spies poison cities, steal technology, destroy improvements and flip cities, but *never* plant nukes.

Gatekeeper