08-02-2005 16:24									#1
	Iron even for Pikeman? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hi,

I played yesterday night a Regent-Game with Maya. I did everything correctly, I was very good in Tech, I built quite a lot wonders (GL, Piramis, LeonardosWS, Smiths's things and maybe some other), I almost build everything (Uni, Bank, Cathedral, and the smaller ones) in all of my cities, I could succesfully defend my empire from Ottomans (the bloody Ottomans attacked me, and only me and all the time, but they were not even my neighbours), from Greece (between me and the Ottomans were Greece, who were likely to join to aggression against me - I could capture a few Greek city). Sometimes, I payed to Rome, to join to war against these two aggressors (4 of us were on 1 continent), when they become to boring.

Unfortunetly, I could not get Iron (horses, saltpaper, coal either %&"§!!) (EDIT: Actually I didn't had ANY resorce on my territory), so I couldn't build anything else, than spearman and longbowman (and warrior). What a f***? Not even a pikeman? Since when do we need Iron for Pikeman (I am playing Conquest 1.00)?

So I discovered steam power, etc and I stil defended my cities with spearman. Of course, it was a question of time, when Rome did built 10-15 medieval inf. and kicked my butt. And, of course nobody wanted to go into millitary allience against them.

I tried to buy iron, but nobody wanted my surplus of wines or silks. And of course, the civs, which had coal, didn't had steam power discovered (I didn't wanted to give them a gift of 4-5 techs, and then hope, that they will heve surplus (Greece didn't even had a road to those moutines), and they will trade it to me).

So I shut down my PC and went to sleep. Is there anybody who would have play further?

BTW, the Maya Javelin Thrower is quite a cool unit. It genereates a Worker every time it kills an enemy unit...



cumi

	08-02-2005 17:52									#2
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Yes. I would have. Once you get to the industrial age, and discover the tech for Riflemen, (I forget what tech it is. I do know that it is one of the first techs available in industrial age.) you no longer need any resources to build good defenders.

Sounds to me like you were just around the time when it would have become interesting again...

PS- The Jav thrower only has a 1 in 3 chance to gernerate a worker.

	08-02-2005 18:05									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

If you don't have resources, kill the civs that have them, or buy from them.

While Archers, and Longbowmen are rather weak defenders, they can kill things just fine, and they are very cheap. If you focus your attacks, you can often overrun an enemy, even one with considerably better weapons.

The AI will sell you resources and luxuries for technology. You say you have a tech lead - use it. Along with resources, get as much cash, and as many luxuries as possible. With a good income, you will probably be able to upgrade everything within the 20 turns a deal lasts.

If you can, post a save, so we can have a better look at the possibilities in this specific game.

	08-02-2005 20:36									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Donegeal Once you get to the industrial age, and discover the tech for Riflemen, (I forget what tech it is. I do know that it is one of the first techs available in industrial age.) you no longer need any resources to build good defenders.

Yes, I needed few more turns for the nationalism (I think this you need for rifleman), but the enemy was allready deep in my territory. I had to wait anyway few more turns until the most productive cities has produced the first riflemen. Let's say I needed 8 turns to produce 5 riflemen, 3 more turns travelling = 11 turns... Too late... The enemy units were allready placed around about 4 border cities (without declaring war). I didn't even wanted to ask them to leave, because I knew they will show me the middle finger...

I think, I made a mistake not trading resources or not getting them by myself... But, as I said, I was almost the whole time in war with someone. I simply didn't had the resources for any adventures. And I even captured some of the greek cities, I expanded my empire almost by 100%.

To get to iron, I should have to capture whole Greece... Cole even farer... I checked the entire map precisely, when I discovered coal, and saw really no chance getting it...

Actually, I finished the game, because I was so frustrated about the lack of resources on my territory.

	08-02-2005 20:57									#5
	Got spare money?

Longbowmen are only 40 shields and are very good at attacking units that try to invade you prior to acquiring Riflemen. They even fight with Muskets on (relatively) even odds.

	08-02-2005 21:12									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Nationalism also allows the drafting of Riflemen!

Rule of thumb is 2 Consript Rifles stacked together = 1 Vet Rifle.

And Nationalism also allows mobilizing for war, to speed up production of military units.

I usually don't do either, but your game is just calling for it.

Value of Iron to the AI can easily reach the 80 to 120 GPT range. So unless it's extremely far away, your better off conquering some as soon as possible once you realize you have that problem.

Pikes require Iron even in Vanilla.

	08-02-2005 22:29									#7
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When you knew you had no access to iron and I guess you did not have horses either, it was time to make a massive build up.

Start taking down some neighbors. You could make massive numbers of archers and spears and cats to attack. If the Greeks are your target due to proximitiy, then so be it. I am talking about the ancient age, do not wait for harder targets.

Once you got LB, the attacking is easier, not easy. Hope you can get a leader and make an army and do some real damage.

The advice on getting to rifles is very strong. Have you looked around to see if any small islands are holding iron or horses?

Pay the cost of having a very large troops count, until you can get a resource from someone. If the AI does not have any spare resources, they can't trade, so check with the advisor.

If they do, you should be able to fashion a deal with lux/techs and some cash for one. I would prefer horses, once I got Chiv. Start all cities with barracks making knights. Rush a few as well and go get them.

Post the earliest save you have.

	09-02-2005 00:22									#8
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Also, you say that it would take few turns to research Nationalism, and couple of more turns to build a few Riflemen, and to send them to the front? How about, you reseach Nationalism, and during that time, do your best with the spears you have, not to forget catapults/trebuchet. (They can take the steam out of any attacker...) Also, build barracks on your border/near border cities, or the cities you imagine are still yours in few turns time... (You might have SunTzu's...) If they are coming with Med. Inf only, they are slow. After Nationalism, turn the tech rate to 10% to get cash, and upgrade your Spearmen to Riflemen. Since you have Leonardo's, this shouldn't banckrupt you...

Then you crush them.

	09-02-2005 01:12									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

You should have gone straight for nationalism instead of steam power. You need iron to build rails so steam power was worthless to you.

Iron is the most important resource in the game. You should aggressively pursue the most convenient source as early as possible.

	09-02-2005 01:34									#10
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

All this reading about resource deficits prompted a tip; instead of playing on huge land mass worlds, choose a smaller % of land mass-- the resources will be more likely to occur for a given chunk of territory. Note that they will also be more fiercely contested as each Civ has less room in comparison.

	09-02-2005 01:52									#11
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Grim Legacy All this reading about resource deficits prompted a tip; instead of playing on huge land mass worlds, choose a smaller % of land mass-- the resources will be more likely to occur for a given chunk of territory. Note that they will also be more fiercely contested as each Civ has less room in comparison.

Wrong. The less land, the less tiles with the given resource. The number is based on map size.

	09-02-2005 03:24									#12
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Oops! That's what you get for going by gameplay impressions. Ignore that then!

	09-02-2005 04:00									#13
	Re: Iron even for Pikeman? Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by cumi Since when do we need Iron for Pikeman

Since Civ3 1.00 Just hasn't been as much as an issue till resource scarcity in Conquests.

quote: Originally posted by cumi (I am playing Conquest 1.00)?

Patch to 1.22 ASAP! (Wait till you finish your current game because a lot of older saves will be incompatible.) That will fix a lot of annoying bugs, including the FP harming rather than helping your corruption situation.

	09-02-2005 04:03									#14
	Re: Iron even for Pikeman? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by cumi Unfortunetly, I could not get Iron (horses, saltpaper, coal either %&"§!!) (EDIT: Actually I didn't had ANY resorce on my territory), so I couldn't build anything else, than spearman and longbowman (and warrior).

As soon as I realize I don't have iron, I make plans to get it, usually by war.

And as far as defending your empire against invaders, when you don't have iron or horses, heres what I do:

The thing I do is build up a mobile force of Trebuchets, guarded by tons on spearmen. Make 2 or three decent stacks of them. Use this Treb stack to move around on your road network (being Maya, you should be able to build a nice one by the beginning of the Middle Ages) and weaken any invaders. Then use Longbowmen (or, archers, if that's your best) to kill the weakened invaders.

Also keep a Treb in each of your vulnerable cities so that you can bombard anyone who attacks them.

With this strat, you can often take down most AI invaders in the Middle Ages and early industrial, even if you don't have any iron or horsies.

And with a big stack of Trebuchets, and a big stack of Longbowmen, you can take down pretty stout cities...
Meaning, you can use your Treb stacks, which were originally built to defend your empire, into an offensive against whoever it was that was stupid enough to attack you. You can make them pay for attacking you.

	20-02-2005 09:11									#15
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Pikes require Iron even in Vanilla.

Sorry but,

WTF means "Vanilla"? (civically talking, of course)

	20-02-2005 09:15									#16
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The original game, no PTW or Conquests.

	20-02-2005 09:22									#17
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Thanks. Every day you learn a new thing...