09-02-2005 04:14									#1
	Most Americans have the right idea on SS. Support Apolyton

A new CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll conducted last weekend and released today shows the majority of Americans want to raise payroll taxes on the wealthy and not privatize Social Security. Currently Any money earned over $90k per year is not taxed by Social Security and most Americans believe this is an unfair give away to the rich.

Meanwhile, 55 percent think President Bush's proposal to allow future wage-earners to invest some of their Social Security taxes in private investment accounts is a "bad idea." That's the same percentage as thought so a month ago, before the president began his campaign for the plan. It looks like most Americans understand there isn't a huge crisis in social security and the minor short falls which will occur in 2052 can easily be covered by making the wealthy pay taxes on all their earnings just like everyone else.

http://money.cnn.com/2005/02/08/ret...ocsec/index.htm

	09-02-2005 04:15									#2
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nm

	09-02-2005 04:17									#3
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I thought it was the other SS.. like 'college graduates tested well on multiple choice question: SS and Hitler. Bad? Good?'. Over 96% answered Bad'.

What do you want? A medal?

But it was social security.. blah. boring.

	09-02-2005 04:20									#4
	Inflate your Upload Space

You believe that what the people think makes any difference to your corporate overlords?

Pah!

	09-02-2005 04:22									#5
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Yes.

	09-02-2005 04:26									#6
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Question

will the "wealthy" get social security benefits in line with what they put into the system??

here in Canada they charge social security and unemployment insurance on something like the first 30 K of earnings. They don't charge beyond that but they don't offer any benefits beyond that either.

	09-02-2005 04:32									#7
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What you get out of social security is based upon your life time earnings but there is a cap beyond which you don't get more even if you pay more. PACs for the rich people lobbied that since their payout was capped their taxes should be capped too. That sounds nice but the truth is it is unfair to the 90% to have all of their wages taxed while the wealthy 10% don't have to pay SS taxes on anything over 90k per year. Just make everyone pay the same flat tax on all their earnings and the problem is solved.

	09-02-2005 04:35									#8
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The rich are rich (and stay rich) because they read the fukin manual on how to do so. Changing the rules now should obviously be done, but both sides (rich and poor) need to agree on a solution that would save SS and not screw themselfs less.

I don't really care what happens, because I know that the rich will still be rich, and the poor will still be complaining about it.

	09-02-2005 04:43									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin What you get out of social security is based upon your life time earnings but there is a cap beyond which you don't get more even if you pay more. PACs for the rich people lobbied that since their payout was capped their taxes should be capped too. That sounds nice but the truth is it is unfair to the 90% to have all of their wages taxed while the wealthy 10% don't have to pay SS taxes on anything over 90k per year. Just make everyone pay the same flat tax on all their earnings and the problem is solved.

Well "fair" is a bit subjective-- You could equally say that it is only "fair" that every dollar paid in be treated the same. Paying the premium with no matching benefit is simply an income redistribution. I don't have a problem with that but I would never characterize it as inherently fair. Its taking money from some people to give to others--

AS for the poll, you could probably get a majority of people to say that a tax of an additional 50% on income over a million is a good thing. I believe most people are happy to tax others LOL

Also when in heck did 90K become "wealthy"??-- Admittedly its a good income but lots of people that make that income would be far from "wealthy"

	09-02-2005 04:51									#10
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How can it not be fair to have everyone pay the same tax on all of their income? Especially when this small change can solve nearly all of Social Securiity's problems.

	09-02-2005 05:27									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Yes.

And where was your recent government vacation again, despite the fact that a majority of Americans opposed you going there?

	09-02-2005 05:40									#12
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finally a good poll

	09-02-2005 05:47									#13
	Re: Most Americans have the right idea on SS. Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Currently Any money earned over $90k per year is not taxed by Social Security and most Americans believe this is an unfair give away to the rich.

Well I'll be the wet blanket here and say this: How many of those making over 90K actually need social security?

And how much do those making over 90K pay in Federal taxes?

And with the Alternative Minimum Tax?

And in State Taxes?

And in City Taxes?

And how many invested in the creation of their own business?

And how many of those wonderful rich bastards pay wages to others?

And how many of those businesses match employee contributions dollar for dollar?

...Well there you go.

	09-02-2005 06:20									#14
	Suffering from ads?

I say make the rich pay and privatise social security as well. Also rich people should not be able to collect one dime of benefits unless they fall into poverty later. The program was designed to provide a sense of security and dignity to old people not be a universal retirement program.

Privitasing SS is not a problem if it is done right and it makes more sense than getting a 2% return on your investment. I get 4% on a 5 year CD. There are ways to protect the private investments. Hey I just thought of one. Force the private accounts to be imostly invested in FDIC insured accounts. You have instanty doubled the return that is given by the government. Let's face it, the government screws everything up and charges more to do it. Privitizing part of it makes sense. The stubborn stonewalling by the Democrats is simply childish and unnecessary.

	09-02-2005 06:22									#15
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What if your privatized account goes belly up?

	09-02-2005 06:25									#16
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If my FDIC insured account goes belly up them we are all introuble. If you are not sure what FDIC means I will be happy to explain it to you...

	09-02-2005 06:27									#17
	Put an end to popups!

Hmmmm, Lincoln, what are your thoughts on Treasury Bonds?

	09-02-2005 06:28									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Question will the "wealthy" get social security benefits in line with what they put into the system??

I have never thought bout that before. If the rich like donald trump pay social security, when they get older will the claim it and stuff, thats a good question. Not like the donald would need the ss but good question.

	09-02-2005 06:29									#19
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I think that should be discussed with a diverse package that is centered on an FDIC insured savings account. As for investing it all in the stock market I am dead set against that idea.

	09-02-2005 06:32									#20
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By the way, I am one of those over 55 folks so I really don't care what they do but if I was younger I would jump at the idea of investing my own money.

	09-02-2005 06:33									#21
	Remove this text

Gee... what a surprise... People think that rich people should pay even more taxes... As Flubber points out... the results shouldn't surprise anybody.

I wonder how the poll would have come out if they had asked Are "YOU" willing to pay more taxes to help fund future SS problems... Well, no I don't wonder, because the answer would have been a resounding NO.

What a stupid poll...

	09-02-2005 06:37									#22
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quote: If my FDIC insured account goes belly up them we are all introuble. If you are not sure what FDIC means I will be happy to explain it to you...

Won't that just mean that the government will be bailing it out again? And that insurance will (in real terms, if not on paper) cost too much anyway.

Insuring your retirement insurance... makes sense to me.

	09-02-2005 06:43									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Japher The rich are rich (and stay rich) because they read the fukin manual on how to do so.

I saw that on an infomercial at 2 am last night. I'm on my way!

	09-02-2005 06:45									#24
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Most rich people don't receive the same level of service per dollar paid in taxes as poor people already. If you believe in progressive taxation, then removing the cap on SS taxes is a no brainer.

	09-02-2005 06:53									#25
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Most rich people don't receive the same level of service per dollar paid in taxes as poor people already. If you believe in progressive taxation, then removing the cap on SS taxes is a no brainer.

Rich people receieve more for their money than the poor from taxes.

That said, I myself, a young person, am against diverting payroll taxes to set up private accounts as it is sold now- adding 2 Trillion in debt is not something I care for, since that only means interest payments will go up and up. Indexing SS to inflation as opposed to wages is also a bad idea, since it would mean a huge cut in benefits long term.

If we assume that the economy will grow more slowly in the future (the estimates that say SS will run out of its piggy bank in 2042 assume that in the future the economy will grow at about 1.9% on average annually, as opposed to the 3% + it has grown in the last 75 years) then private accounts plus indexing to inflation would mean a huge cut in benefits for retirement out of SS. If the economy performs as well in the future as in the past the SS "crisis" vanishes utterly.

I still say, a slow increase in the payroll tax, a slight move upward in the cap, and raising the retirement age to 69 or 70 over the next 30 years.

	09-02-2005 06:56									#26
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Rich people receieve more for their money than the poor from taxes.

I was refering to general income taxes, not SS taxes. For SS taxes you are of course correct.

I have a lot of fear about messing with SS. It seems like one of those things that sounds good on paper, but I have my doubts.

	09-02-2005 07:02									#27
	Suffering from ads?

The problem is that there are two issues:

1. How can we make the current system last
2. Can we make a better system

Doing he first is not rocket science- we have to take similar steps to those taken in the mid-80's, raising revenues and cutting costs, thought again, nothing to radical is really necessary, given that if the economy in the future underperforms but not by much, the "crisis" vanishes. That is why I advocate small and long term tax raises and raising the retirement age over time as well, incremental, measured changes that make the system work without much problem.

The long term supporters of "reform" don;t care about 1, because they think a different system is better- so they seek to change the public pension system under the guise of reforming it. This half-asses approach in my view is the worst of all worlds, but is the only path that these folks can take because the success of the program as is has made it difficult right now to simply clamor for the complete overthrow of the current system.

	09-02-2005 07:11									#28
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IMO, the best plan would

a) keep social security alive for those who NEED it
and
b) give those who don't need it an alternative

Those who don't need it and pay into it all their lives, or if we feel like it pay it at a higher AMOUNT (if not a higher rate), should have some kind of benefit if they decide not to take it or pay more.

I'm thinking lower capital gains taxes on investment. That way they'll be encouraged to invest more, thus taxed more (even if the tax is lower). Get 'em on volume.

The wealthy are more likely to invest their money, and are more likely to think (and actually do) they can beat the market. It's a win win!

They pay 4% on the dollar over 90k, but if they can beat that - gains tax in their investments they won't care. I am sure that is something they would like, even with the double taxation, and SS will get more money.

	09-02-2005 07:29									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: If my FDIC insured account goes belly up them we are all introuble. If you are not sure what FDIC means I will be happy to explain it to you... Won't that just mean that the government will be bailing it out again? And that insurance will (in real terms, if not on paper) cost too much anyway. Insuring your retirement insurance... makes sense to me.

FDIC insures saving accounts already. It is designed to prevent a run on the banks if the economy tanks as it did during the great depressoon of the 1930's. If the federal government defaults on that then nothing can save SS or anything else. The point is that the money is not subject to stock market crashes etc. Of course if we have a depression of biblical proportions everyone will be broke including the government. Then the farmers will be king.

	09-02-2005 07:35									#30
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I'm hazy on the scheme, but won't that create a one way bet?

Or are people not even allowed to control their "private" accounts?