09-02-2005 13:31									#1
	UN Builds Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I just recheck the save. I was wrong about Borcem's production. They have 3 3 shield tiles, 9 4 shield tiles, and 9 1 shield tile. That gives 54 base production, 108 with Factory and Power Plant. If you add the 42 extra shields from mobilization they'd have 150. So they are losing 24 spt to corruption? Guess it wouldn't be the FP then.

They can't have a Nuclear plant because it's only been 2 turns since they got Fission. So I think that ND must be benefiting from the Mobilization bug on their UN build to get to 126spt. Without it they should only have 108 spt.

Last edited by Aeson on 09-02-2005 at 13:50

	09-02-2005 13:47									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Tempest is at 344 shields. I can get it up to 136 spt after next turn, but max of 126 next turn. We have enough food to cover the starvation, and aren't using WLTKD there so won't lose it.

344 + 126 = 470
1000 - 470 = 530
530 / 135 = 3.9

So we can finish the UN in 5 turns, beating ND. But I think we are also being affected by the Mobilization bug. At max production we have 10 * 4 tiles, 5 * 3 tiles, and 1 * 2 tiles, for a total of 57 base production. Double that with Factory and Power Plant, so 114 production before corruption. We lose 4 shields to corruption at 114, so our base production should be 110 without the Mobilization bug.

Last edited by Aeson on 09-02-2005 at 14:33

	09-02-2005 14:12									#3
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Killdaria has 9 * 4, 2 * 2, 6 * 1, and 1 * 3 for 49 base, 98 spt with Factory and Power Plant.

Turn 0: 5412 - 120 = 5292 / 20 = 264
Turn 1: 7212 - 120 = 7092 / 20 = 354, + 90
Turn 2: 9012 - 120 = 8892 / 20 = 444, + 90

So it looks like GoW is probably not benefiting from the Mobilization bug. They still will need 7 turns to finish.

Last edited by Aeson on 09-02-2005 at 14:33

	09-02-2005 14:32									#4
	Support Apolyton

Without the mobilization bug, I think GoW would beat us and ND both. But if GoW is also using the bug, we would win.

Killdaria (unknown mob status):

Turn 0: 264
Turn 1: 354
Turn 2: 444
Turn 3: 534
Turn 4: 624
Turn 5: 714
Turn 6: 804
Turn 7: 894
Turn 8: 984
Turn 9: 1074, UN finished.

Tempest (no-Mob bug):

Turn 0: 0
Turn 1: 93
Turn 2: 186
Turn 3: 279
Turn 4: 372
Turn 5: 482
Turn 6: 592
Turn 7: 702
Turn 8: 812
Turn 9: 922
Turn 10: 1032, UN finished.

Turn 0: 0
Turn 1: 108
Turn 2: 216
Turn 3: 324
Turn 4: 432
Turn 5: 540
Turn 6: 648
Turn 7: 756
Turn 8: 864
Turn 9: 972
Turn 10: 1080, UN finished.

	09-02-2005 15:11									#5
	Tired of ads?

So our plan is to build it and then what?

Will we hold the vote, or do we build it to block someone else from holding the vote?

Any progress in diplomacy on this issue?

	09-02-2005 15:36									#6
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I'm not sure if we can/should build it. If GoW is also using the mobilization bug then we could build it. If not we need to let GoW build it (as does ND if I'm right and they are getting helped by the mobilization bug).

	09-02-2005 15:58									#7
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If ND is using the mob bug, we've got to complain. And there is only one channel where we can complain, which is Trip. We can't tell ND how we know their perfect shield counts, or everyone if going to use the sabotage cost method to see where we are, and we can forget any peaceful buildup to SS.

So, Aeson, if you're sure of your numbers, warn Trip. We have tried to keep the mobilization bug from benefitting us, I think ND will have to comply as well.

DeepO

	09-02-2005 18:02									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I'm still amazed we are even contemplating building the UN.
Is there really any team who will vote for another team??? I know I wouldn't even if I was down to my last city or if I was doing a Lego.

This goes against just every fibre in my body to be honest..voting so some-else wins??!!

Has anyone here ever voted for an AI to win?

Really, I don't think I even want to win through the UN.

	09-02-2005 19:18									#9
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quote: So we can finish the UN in 5 turns, beating ND. But I think we are also being affected by the Mobilization bug. At max production we have 10 * 4 tiles, 5 * 3 tiles, and 1 * 2 tiles, for a total of 57 base production. Double that with Factory and Power Plant, so 114 production before corruption. We lose 4 shields to corruption at 114, so our base production should be 110 without the Mobilization bug.

I thought that you multiply the base by 1.75, as the power plant increases the amount of shields the factory produces by 50%. So the amount of shields that Tempest should be making is 57*1.75=99.75, which is rounded to 100, right?

	09-02-2005 21:57									#10
	Re: UN Builds Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Aeson I just recheck the save. I was wrong about Borcem's production. They have 3 3 shield tiles, 9 4 shield tiles, and 9 1 shield tile. That gives 54 base production, 108 with Factory and Power Plant. If you add the 42 extra shields from mobilization they'd have 150. So they are losing 24 spt to corruption? Guess it wouldn't be the FP then. They can't have a Nuclear plant because it's only been 2 turns since they got Fission. So I think that ND must be benefiting from the Mobilization bug on their UN build to get to 126spt. Without it they should only have 108 spt.

Why can't they had fission earlier? Did we spot when Vox went to the modern age, and was able to give fission to ND? It might have been earlier then for us.

54 * 2.5 (factory + nuke) = 135. Which would mean 9 loss to waste, which seems reasonable for a city next to the FP. 24 spt looks like a lot to me, or the FP has to be reasonably distant

DeepO

	09-02-2005 22:02									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson Tempest is at 344 shields. I can get it up to 136 spt after next turn, but max of 126 next turn. We have enough food to cover the starvation, and aren't using WLTKD there so won't lose it. 344 + 126 = 470 1000 - 470 = 530 530 / 135 = 3.9 So we can finish the UN in 5 turns, beating ND. But I think we are also being affected by the Mobilization bug. At max production we have 10 * 4 tiles, 5 * 3 tiles, and 1 * 2 tiles, for a total of 57 base production. Double that with Factory and Power Plant, so 114 production before corruption. We lose 4 shields to corruption at 114, so our base production should be 110 without the Mobilization bug.

57+16 (from mob) = 73.
73*2 = 146 spt before corruption. If ND is using the mob bonus, we could use it as well, and gain more than the 126 of next turn (we aren't losing 20 to corruption, are we? I thought Tempest was relatively corruption free)

DeepO

	09-02-2005 22:04									#12
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither So our plan is to build it and then what? Will we hold the vote, or do we build it to block someone else from holding the vote?

A lot depends on analysis, if ND is going to vote when they build it, we have little choice but to go for it ourselves.

quote: Any progress in diplomacy on this issue?

Diplo is on a all time low, at least from my side. We could really use some ambassadors to help CH.

DeepO

	09-02-2005 22:07									#13
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by alva I'm still amazed we are even contemplating building the UN. Is there really any team who will vote for another team??? I know I wouldn't even if I was down to my last city or if I was doing a Lego.

Here you go... Lego is still in the game. Vox is still in the game. If both vote for ND, all they have to do is to exterminate RP, and win.

quote: Really, I don't think I even want to win through the UN.

I'm not sure. It would be an achievement on a diplo level. And it would mean that you enslaved other nations, instead of just conquering them. Politically, that's more interesting

DeepO

	09-02-2005 22:08									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Krill I thought that you multiply the base by 1.75, as the power plant increases the amount of shields the factory produces by 50%. So the amount of shields that Tempest should be making is 57*1.75=99.75, which is rounded to 100, right?

No, the bonus is cumulative. So a factory gives 50% extra, a power plant gives an extra 50% for a total of 100% extra. A nuke would give 150%.

DeepO

	09-02-2005 22:56									#15
	Suffering from ads?

If ND has been or is getting the mob bug, we have no real remedy for what as already been accurred, do we?

I do not see any likely method for us winning the vote as we can only count on RP and ourself at this point. So it means we either have to build it or get a deal to ban it.

Since no one has contacted us about it, they must have a plan, you could not afford to ignore it otherwise.

	09-02-2005 22:59									#16
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BTW the their plan could be as simple as having ND or ND+Lego, Gow + Vox. IOW knowing that we have a two votes only and either of them knowing they have no intent to vote for each other, all they need is to know Vox is not going for anyone to be safe.

We do not have that option as we do not know that GoW and ND do not have a pact.

	10-02-2005 01:45									#17
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I think the Diplo win is very cheesy in this setting. I'd rather lose. A civ that votes "for another" is really just going to be trying to get some revenge on the civ(s) that beat them already.

As for Nuke plants, Vox sent us Fission on turn 248. ND didn't have Fission until their turn 248 as we could have traded it to them on our turn 248 and they had started the UN by our turn 249. So the earliest they could have Nuclear Power is turn 252, next turn, and I highly doubt they are capable of 4 turn modern techs yet.

	10-02-2005 02:58									#18
	Increase Your PM Length

damn... nuclear plants come with nuclear power, and not with fission... a big mistake of mine. As usual, I am not used to get this late in a game, or at that point even care what is going on. There were only a few occassions where I ever built a nuke plant.

About diplo win: I don't want to win by diplo, but don't we want to prevent others from winning like that? ND is close: they've got a good shot at destroying the RP cities on Stormia, while the RP cities on Legoland are open opportunities... If Vox is theirs, they can win. Even if it would be revenge victory from others, I still would prefer to win, instead of giving a cheesy victory to others.

That said, I still would prefer if the UN build would be used for the internet, we get out of mob for a couple of turns and build unis and banks everywhere, and get into mob for our defense, and SS build.

Or, maybe we should consider a 'pre-emptive' attack on ND. When we think we can counter attack successfully, we are also military strong enough to attack. All we need is support from GoW. And in that setting, the longer we wait, the more troops ND can build.

DeepO

	10-02-2005 04:28									#19
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ND can't get to RP on Stormia without GoW's help currently, and if we maintain our advantage at Naval production, ever. We have 4 BB, a DD that would have 2-3 turns to take shots at their Transports. Then 2-3 Subs would get one shot. We can also get out 6 more ships in that timeframe and reposition our Bombers for 1-2 turns of Bombing.

I would be suprised if in the near term ND could get a single Transport to RP.

Also we should have Lego wrapped up in 6 turns when the voting would happen. Lego's S fleet can run but they can't hide, and GoW should spot the N fleet any turn now. They had DD from the E and W, and we have a sentry line across from RP to Vox.

--------------

Counter attacking and pre-emptive require different forces. If ND has all of their units in cities we'll likely just be suiciding against 3-4 units per city. If they put most their units on Transports to land on us the next turn, then we have an opening where they have 1-2 units per city and we can wreck havoc. Either way our invasion will be lost, but the counterattack should be able to take 2x or 3x the number of cities, plus we have an better chance of diplomatically justifying our actions to GoW. They don't want us on Bob at all, so attacking without GoW on board probably gets us GoW as an enemy.

	10-02-2005 08:33									#20
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I agree we should not seek to win a vote, but we might want to block anyone else getting a vote by building it ourselves and declining to hold the vote.

	10-02-2005 15:09									#21
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As DeepO said, we're going to need some Diplo volunteers if we're not going to suffer diplomatically.

Without boring people with the details of my availability at the moment, all I can do is draft and send messages as requested by the turn player and post up the replies. I can't really do much pro-active or creative until at least March.

We had a reply from ND, perhaps I should get back to them. They suggested "about 4 ships and 4 subs on each side?"

	06-03-2005 06:17									#22
	Increase Your PM Length

Borcem
1290AD: 126 - 126 = 0 / 20 = 0
1295AD: 2646 - 126 = 2520 / 20 = 126 (+126)
1300AD: 5166 - 126 = 5040 / 20 = 252 (+126)
1305AD: 7686 - 126 = 7560 / 20 = 378 (+126)
1310AD: 10206 - 126 = 10080 / 20 = 504 (+126)
1315AD: 630
1320AD: 756
1325AD: 882
1330AD: 1008

Killdaria
1295AD: 7212 - 120 = 7092 / 20 = 354.6
1300AD: 9012 - 120 = 8892 / 20 = 444.6 (+90)
1305AD: 10812 - 120 = 10692 / 20 = 534.6 (+90)
1310AD: 12572 - 120 = 12452 / 20 = 622.6 (+88)
1315AD: 712
1320AD: 802
1325AD: 892
1330AD: 982