12-02-2005 06:56									#31
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Subsequent moves:

• Units rehomed as suggested
  
• FS's colony pod now in position, supported by the scout
  
• Invincible moves north towards the PK base for healing
  
• Cruiser Coastguard bombards Paraminia, mate sails west to tagteam
  
• Messena's 2 formers build the road to connect Messena to the Rio Grande

	12-02-2005 10:24									#32
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Carrying on as best I can while awaiting comment and direction:

Called Zak and extorted 100 ec's from him

Shelled the Hive stacked units outside MT - to no avail - neither they nor we inflicted nor took any damage

Moved Fort Soup's crawler onto the mine and reassigned the worker to the solar farm tile

Put a Crypteia into training at Fort Buster (1 turn)

Changed Messena to a Hoplite (4 turns, and pop grows to 2 in 4 turns)

AA moved to FB

	12-02-2005 10:28									#33
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It'll cost 70 ec's to upgrade an Impact Rover to a Missile Rover.

We have a Hoplite at Minas Tirith. If we don't upgrade to synthmetal, how about disbanding it to help rush the Missile Infantryman being trained there? (Or do we want to protoype something, with a crawler, then retire and use the minerals for a Perimeter Defense there?)

Do we want to have a Crypteia in every inland base (I'm sure that those Morgan longstriders will be arriving soon)

	12-02-2005 13:59									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 All valid points. But why bother now? We can do the same right after the raid, and gain some security by delaying the upgrade. Namely, if Morgan succeeds in some actions against our force, they would not get the Missile technology. Also, we will know better then, than we know now, if an upgrade is needed at all. Remember the distinct possibility of this being a kamikaze raid.

I agree with you reasoning, but the problem is that we won't have the option of only upgrading part of the force next turn, we'd have to upgrade them all since they will have used up their MPs.

Also, how bad is it if they get Missile tech? They already have Gatling, though admittedly not prototyped.

quote: It'll cost 70 ec's to upgrade an Impact Rover to a Missile Rover.

I do suggest upgrading one of them, though this is only assuming that an extended version of the raid is possible.

quote: We have a Hoplite at Minas Tirith. If we don't upgrade to synthmetal, how about disbanding it to help rush the Missile Infantryman being trained there?

Yes, that sounds like a good idea to me
Our defenders there are damaged, we need fresh troops.

Also, I still think we should upgrade the GeneralTacticus to missile or impact, unless somebody can confirm to me that it won't help us if we're attacked long range. In my tests long range is always weapon vs weapon, and the missiled GT seriously kicks morgan foil ass every time regardless of who attacks.

	12-02-2005 14:21									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen I agree with you reasoning, but the problem is that we won't have the option of only upgrading part of the force next turn, we'd have to upgrade them all since they will have used up their MPs.

But upgrading does not take away movement, or does it? I mean, why not upgrade at the beginning of a turn?

quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen Also, how bad is it if they get Missile tech? They already have Gatling, though admittedly not prototyped.

One reason is better weapons. The other one is a tech they could try and trade with the others. Besides, any advantge to them is a disadvantage to us. I see no need to risk it.

quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen Also, I still think we should upgrade the GeneralTacticus to missile or impact, unless somebody can confirm to me that it won't help us if we're attacked long range. In my tests long range is always weapon vs weapon, and the missiled GT seriously kicks morgan foil ass every time regardless of who attacks.

And we need to be sure to kick them, if they happen to fire into the Fungus. This upgrade is important.

	12-02-2005 14:37									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 But upgrading does not take away movement, or does it? I mean, why not upgrade at the beginning of a turn?

Upgrading a unit does use up its entire turn. If we upgrade it at the beginning of a turn it wouldn't be able to move later on At least this is how it is in my version of SMAC.

quote: One reason is better weapons. The other one is a tech they could try and trade with the others. Besides, any advantge to them is a disadvantage to us. I see no need to risk it.

Yes they do get better weapons, I admit. But it's only an upgrade from 5 to 6. 20% more effecient attacks. Not that terrible. And it will be very difficult for them to capture a missile rover when it has buddies around. We can always set it to be the defender and so have it always destroyed first in case they attack a rover stack.

It doesn't net them the technology attached to the weapon however. They wouldn't get synthetic fossil fuels just because they have missile weapons. However, and I hadn't thought of this, they can trade missile units to other factions and so give them missile weapons. But it seems like a long-shot, and anway they could do that with gatling units as well.

Now, assuming we have a chance to maul the HGP as well, we should really consider every weapon at our disposal. If that upgrade gives one of our rovers and extra MP due to less damage, then it could be a very good investment.

	12-02-2005 16:07									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen Also, I still think we should upgrade the GeneralTacticus to missile or impact, unless somebody can confirm to me that it won't help us if we're attacked long range. In my tests long range is always weapon vs weapon, and the missiled GT seriously kicks morgan foil ass every time regardless of who attacks.

There's a bug in smac/x - A ship in shallow waters gets altitude bonus on artillery duels

	12-02-2005 16:11									#38
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quote: One reason is better weapons. The other one is a tech they could try and trade with the others. Besides, any advantge to them is a disadvantage to us. I see no need to risk it.

When they steal unit, they get unit plans but not tech.. If they had acquired tech however, we expect troubles soon.. as Doctrine: Flexibility + Synthetic Fossil Fuels leads to Doctrine: Airpower

	12-02-2005 16:51									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie Moving the 'Peg towards Gaian lands with a Commando Impact Speeder might be considered a tad hostile if found - No?

I would stay away from the Gaian waters, or land. They are too paranoid at the moment, and we await substantial gains from not pi$$ing them off now. This is direct action, unlike a Phalanx issue.

quote: Originally posted by sentry33 here's a bug in smac/x - A ship in shallow waters gets altitude bonus on artillery duels

It seems that both ships would be in shallow waters in this case. Or am I missing something?

	12-02-2005 17:43									#40
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quote: Originally posted by sentry33 There's a bug in smac/x - A ship in shallow waters gets altitude bonus on artillery duels

Hey that's pretty neat That's a good example of decent programming gone bad. The ship in the shallowest waters gets a 25% bonus. Still, it doesn't look too promising for the Morgan.

Morgan Foil:
Laser: 2
Very green: -25%
Altitude: +25%
Strength: 1.875

GT with laser:
Laser: 2
Commando: +37.5%
Strength: 2.75

GT with impact:
Impact: 4
Commando: +37.5%
Strength: 5.375

GT with missile:
Missile: 6
Commando: +37.5%
Strength: 8.25

With power at 70% an impact unit would get battle odds of roughly 2 to 1. With a laser unit we'd be at even money, and with missiles 3 to 1. I'm not sure those odds are actually accurate though, in my experience you never lose 3 to 1 battles, but they're calculated in the same way that SMAC does them

	12-02-2005 19:59									#41
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With the sim I've confirmed that an upgraded-to-missile cruiser will kill the foil every time if initiating either a conventional or arty attack, and will survive every time if attacked long range.

So I suggest we spend the 100 ec's we got from lal (plus 10) to upgrade

	12-02-2005 21:37									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie With the sim I've confirmed that an upgraded-to-missile cruiser will kill the foil every time if initiating either a conventional or arty attack, and will survive every time if attacked long range. So I suggest we spend the 100 ec's we got from lal (plus 10) to upgrade

Good.

Can you see the happy faces of my men? Happy:

	12-02-2005 21:43									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie Moving the 'Peg towards Gaian lands with a Commando Impact Speeder might be considered a tad hostile if found - No?

You think so?
If we're careful they shouldn't be able to notice us: the rover can in the same turn hop off and on the transport. And the transport can with its last movement point always move away from the coast. Though of course, while the Gaians owe us IntInt it might indeed not be such a good idea to scavenge their coast.

Still how about keeping the trannie in the neighbourhood (explore a bit south or something) just in case they betray us, so we can react quickly?
(What would be the other option for the Pegasus btw? Head straight back to base?)

quote: Should Arcadia's easternmost probe continue to shadow the Zak colony pod (to the northwest tip of Arcadia, where it's headed) or move to garrison Mendelev College

There's a Crypteia in Tegea Harbour heading for Mendelev College. Though of course we could always give the units other duties if you want.

quote: MT's Coastguard should presumably shell the Hive stack on the coast, to inflict whatever damage it can

How about first moving into Minas Tirith and bombarding from there? Then we could repair the unit next turn if we want.

quote: So I suggest we spend the 100 ec's we got from Zak (plus 10) to upgrade

Now that we got another 100 credits, it seems my earlier concern of a lack of money is no longer valid.

Edit:

Minas Tirith worker suggestion: how about moving the 2-1-0 worker to the 0-3-0 mine? It boosts production, and MT has accumulated a decent nutrient reserve, so it can run with a nut deficit for a couple of years. It also reduced the hurry cost of a missile infantry there.

Also, what will we do with the new FB crawler? Let it harvest somewhere, or eg hurry a missile marine in SC4 with it?

Support question: do we want to leave the missile infantry homed to OA, or for example rehome it to SC2 to keep OA free of support?

May I suggest Fort Soup builds another crawler, as it still has a nutrient shortage?

	13-02-2005 01:48									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie Do we want to have a Crypteia in every inland base (I'm sure that those Morgan longstriders will be arriving soon)

Personally I don't share your opinion. The Corporation doesn't even have transports yet to bring those probe teams to us. And who knows they'll have other stuff on their mind after a succesful PTS raid, and won't even think anymore about building transports.

Besides that, the Corporation doesn't yet have elite probe teams, so only coastal bases and those one square seperated from the sea are at risk. At our west side that's Messena, Río Grande, Gythium Harbour and Minas Tirith.

For Rio Grande, there isn't much other choice than to place probe defences in the base. But for the other three bases I think we have a cheaper and more pro-active option available than placing a number of defensive probesin each base: use our navy to control the two chokepoints indicated in red! In the north we've already got the SCC Njord and the SCC Vladimorei. But in the Straits of Laconia we could use an offensive ship more. Not only to check for any Corporate activity, but also to defend against that 5-2-4 Hive foil finished in Great Collective in three turns.

An additional advantage is that once our invasion force is finished, those same ships could be used to escort the transport cruisers.

	13-02-2005 02:30									#45
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Great thinking on the fleet, Maniac.

	13-02-2005 09:37									#46
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Some miscellaneous moves as we finish up the turn:

• FL's crypteia (currently in Tegea harbour) moves upriver to the rivers' confluence to move down to Mendelev College
  
• SC2's probe continues to shadow the Uni Colony pod for protection
  
• Disco Volante moves south and waves to the Invincible crew in passing (Invincible will reach the PK naval yards at Great Refuge next turn then wait a turn to heal)
  
• Pegasus moves to a small peninsula and disembarks R-112 to pop a pod there - we pop a Battle Ogre Mk I. Reload on to 'Peg and move south, stopping adjacent to another juicy landpod
  
• SCC GeneralTacticus upgraded to missile, still syntharmored
  
• Used FB's crawler to protoype a plasma unit then retired it. Changed production to a missile rover (1 turn but needing only 11 minerals from the 18 mineral base) So I moved the crawler working the forest mine thru Rio Grande, homing it there, to work the 7 mineral mine and then moved that mine's crawler to the Forested mine. result - no minerals loss at FB and an extra 7 mins this turn at RG
  
• OA's missile infantryman moved thru Santiago Citadel, as suggested, and rehomed there, then continued to Gythium harbour
  
• Fort Soup's Colony Pod and AU's assigned Hoplite unit now together in the yellow zone ready for PTS boom next turn
  
• Disbanded MT's hoplite and spent 5 ec's to rush Missile Infantryman

Attachment: avdg3-sparta, 2159endturn.zip
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).

	13-02-2005 09:52									#47
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Our 2159 builds (crawlers being the default):

Attachment: 2159 - sparta builds.jpg
This has been downloaded 28 time(s).

	13-02-2005 10:07									#48
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Here's the Pegasus with its enhanced cargo (if the Gaians stumble on it they'll have a fit!!!):

Attachment: 2159 - ogrepop.jpg
This has been downloaded 26 time(s).

	13-02-2005 11:37									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie Here's the Pegasus with its enhanced cargo (if the Gaians stumble on it they'll have a fit!!!):

That's horrible, AND they'll be pissed that we popped their pods for them. I'll be surprised if they don't consider this an act of war

But regardless of what the Gaians think, this was a great turn. Well played Googlie and the rest of the Junta

EDIT: Perhaps we should send the Gaians a message that a transport with troops involved in the Hive campaign (bogus codename: Operation Fly-Swatter?) is currently moving along their coast, just so they won't yell at us for being all sneaky.

	13-02-2005 12:12									#50
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Turn finalized and sent (I put Ecol eng in the trade window, "pending" with the comment "Awaiting details of the trade")

Zak lost a former to a mindworm at the end of the turn (north of Climatic Research)

	13-02-2005 13:06									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie Pegasus moves to a small peninsula and disembarks R-112 to pop a pod there - we pop a Battle Ogre Mk I.

Err, I mean.