11-02-2005 10:28									#1
	City Build Orders Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I would also like to get your ideas on city names. Vampire clan names may be good for cities:

Ahrimane
Ravnos
Baali
Brujah
Gangrel
Kiasyd
Lasombra
Malkavian
Nagaraja
Tzimisce
Assamites
Salubri
Samedi
Toreador
Tremere

	11-02-2005 10:31									#2
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As for the build orders, I would like to get a curragh out of our capitol first. This unit will move rapidly around the coast with a speed of three and probably give us contact with the other nations, which reduces research costs and gives us trade opportunities.

	11-02-2005 22:13									#3
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Yay! Whitewolf Names

I'm not the only brooding RPG geek on this team

I'd like to use the clan names as unit names, and use more vampire history and cultural references as city names.

City name sugestions:
Enoch
Nod
Amaranth
Lextalionis
Camarilla
Thorns
Gehenna
Majesty
Masquerade
Eternal Night
Embrace

--Togas

Last edited by Togas on 11-02-2005 at 22:24

	11-02-2005 22:28									#4
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My RPG days ended before the vampire games came out. Twillight 2000 was the last one I bought. I got these off the internet.

	11-02-2005 22:32									#5
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We will need a warrior in our capital for military police, however, with the ivory already there, we can delay production of the warrior and get that curragh out early.

Switch to curragh, build that first, and let's get this seafaring civ on it's way.

--Togas

	12-02-2005 03:57									#6
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Building a curragh

	12-02-2005 05:42									#7
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curragh!

	12-02-2005 19:48									#8
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Something for consideration:

Getting a good Wonder of the World probably rarely hurts. Starting building one well ahead my decide if we are going to get one or not. The worst thing would be to accumulate later a lot of shields and be in need to waste them. We might designate a city, which would start a WoW pretty soon. This city would be also intended to grow fast:
fast growth = more shields = faster complietion of some wonder of the world.
nothing can speed it up, as far as i know. neither hurrying nor disbanding military units in the city, even forests, when harvested, do not add shields to it - am i right?
My idea is to start barracks in the capital city maybe. After getting Pottery, switch to granary. This will ensure very fast growth of the city. Right after the granary start some Wonder of the World.
Curragh may be done in the city, which will be established south from capital. we kinda concluded it will be also a port city. military units would be build in the begining in the north city (or north-west, where the settler goes)

	12-02-2005 20:24									#9
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Looks like most people want a curragh in our first city, grannary next will probably get lots of votes.

I would also like to get an early wonder, but I have not yet decided which one or when to start. With 3 cities chances are everyone else may be planning to start a wonder sooner than in most other PBEMs.

The only thing that can hurry a Great Wonder is a SGL. MGLs can rush anything else.

	12-02-2005 20:32									#10
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getting SGL may be a slim chance?

	12-02-2005 20:39									#11
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Ususally I would push hard for the lighthouse, but as this is a small map...I think I would push most for SoZ. Even over pyramids. The smaller the map, the less useful the lighthouse and pyramids are, and conversely the more powerful the SoZ is, as cities are going to be at a premium.

The library is something I would never build in an mp game.

	12-02-2005 21:10									#12
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I understand, that human players can manipulate better the research to try to offset the GL benefits, but in the game where there are 6 players? A civ with GL should be around getting the advance as soon as there is a second civ having it. It is closer to the leading civs.
It might be dangerous when for example there is that one civ next to us having that important advance and not releasing it to others. I agree here.
SoZ is giving ancient cavalary:
3-2-2 (+1 hp). it is better than swordsman
3-2-1
Getting SoZ will secure our civ.
On the other hand, what are chances that soon more than one civ will have bronze working and iron working? I guess most civs go for it.

	13-02-2005 01:28									#13
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no, the point isn't that teams could work around the library, its the impact on the intergame relationships that I'm worried about.

If we don't have an active trading relationship with other nearby civs, then surely we will fall to the sword immediately. I would rather have to trade and buy techs than get them for free, which fosters animosity and jealousy among those whose work we are benefitting from.

We do not need to mark ourselves as an abnormally dangerous civ early on.

	13-02-2005 02:50									#14
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In my pbem experience, techs progress much much faster than they do vs the AI. By the time the GL was complete, we would get only a few techs from it, and the other teams would see us as "stealing" those techs from them. Not generally a good diplomatic move.

Now, there are times when it can be useful, like when there is one or two civs that are far ahead and we're trying to catch up ... and we share our GL techs with other allies. Such an action could earn us a lot of good will from the lesser nations. However, our start is strong and our civ earns bonus commerce for sea-sites. We will likely be the first civ to Philosphy, and we should be the lead civ with technology. We won't need the GL.

As for the SoZ, it's extremely useful, but my understanding is that this map is balanced. It was man-made. We can assume that everyone started out with ivory. Unless we immediately devote our production to the ancient cavs, we should ignore the wonder because several other civs are going to race for it.

It is possible for us to prebuild it right now, ignore the curragh idea, and (most importantly) use our other two cities to produce 2 mil police for our capital. With 2 mil police and ivory, we can get up to size 4. After that, we'll need lux taxes and/or entertainers.

IIRC, we're on emperer and that means our 2nd citizen is unhappy, as is every one after that.

--Togas

	13-02-2005 15:23									#15
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Then if building SoZ wins in the discussion, what chances would we have to actually build it?

- How much granary would sppeed it up? we loose turns to do it, but in the final run we will have more city citizens faster and working our mines. Some estimate would be helpful.

- About other civs - would they possibly have better production than us? If we fail to get SoZ what then?

About curragh then - I would build it in such case in the south city - port city hopefully. It just will be completed a bit later. Military might be done just after that. Then settlers.