11-02-2005 10:44									#1
	Worker verus Public Works? Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Would you rather change the landscape with workers, or, have a "public works" system in Civ 4?

1) Workers

2) Public works

	11-02-2005 10:52									#2
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Workers

	11-02-2005 11:40									#3
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PW, but not totally as in CTP2.

	11-02-2005 11:50									#4
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I'd quite like both- Workers throughout, but, I really don't wish to have to put a railway in e-v-e-r-y single square either.

That is the time I'd like an upgrade through Public works!

Toby

	11-02-2005 14:21									#5
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There are like a gazillion threads on this scattered all over Apolyton, and at least one big (and decisive poll) one in this section.

There are also no bananas.

	11-02-2005 14:28									#6
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no banana.

Early game: workers
Late game: PW

How's that for a new twist to the everlasting story.

	11-02-2005 18:37									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Toby Rowe I'd quite like both- Workers throughout, but, I really don't wish to have to put a railway in e-v-e-r-y single square either. That is the time I'd like an upgrade through Public works! Toby

If all you n00bs would only know that you can automate workers. That you can tell "Railroad to" a certain tile.
That you can automate polution, automate irrigation, that you can automate a trade network.

Workers are MUCH more efficient then pw.
Workers give much more flexibility, if needed. AND at the same time can totally automate a continent, or a certain city.

the problems people have with workers would totally be gone if they would only know how it works. There are even simple icons at the bottom of the screen that can help anybody out.

	11-02-2005 19:23									#8
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The time-wasting problems people have with workers would totally be gone if automation chose exactly what you wanted all the time, then youve got to wonder whats the point in having the human control anything at all if automation is the only way to make something playable?

Your point falls apart again because PW has automation, and yes you can PW automate single cities but the PW system is so quick and easy to use automation isnt needed to make it bareable.

The only n00b here is you for showing you dont know enough about either system to present a decent arguement.

	11-02-2005 19:53									#9
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PW, but...

If workers could be lock-stacked into worker gangs that would give a bonus for construction time, and allow for the movement of large numbers of units with minimal clicks, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, allow for the ability to issue a single mouse click command to multiple units for a particular task, this would greatly cut down on mindless micromanagement of workers in the late game.

In that case, either system would be OK by me.

	11-02-2005 20:48									#10
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Well dear Maq, since I never said that the PW system didn't got automation nor did I say that the PW system didn't got single-city automation.
What I tried to make clear is that the worker system does have it. (bc most worker-haters think it doens't)

Managing PW takes as much time as managing workers, as long as you know how to do it.

The problems I have with PW are:
1. it's more of the same. You get income from cities, and you split it up in money, science, luxerious and PW. While the entire worker-system is a totally different concept.
2. workers give a new dimention: they need to be guared, they can be killed, captured, traded.
3. you can add more workers to one job

All in all, it makes the game more then only split up your income into several parts-management. While it's as easy as the pw system.

Oh, and about 'workers on automation' not doing what you want them to do.... there's no problem no-where that can read your mind. pw-automation can't either. But in fact the automated-workers do a very good job getting as most as possible from your terrain.

	11-02-2005 20:49									#11
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Both. Public works systesm within your territory, gangs of workers outside of it, or in it if you really wanted it for some reason. I would much rather be able to say :irrigate from here to here, clear all these forests, and then railroad it all by a few clicks on a map than having to deal with 20 workers. It also allows one to do it fatsre if you simply pump in more and more people into it, more and more money.

On the other hand, if I want to make a road to somewhrre deep outside my bounderies, it should be gangs of workers.

	11-02-2005 21:06									#12
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I like both...but have really recently warmed up to the Public Works concept. The only disadvantage about public works over workers is the love of micromanagement. Yes, I said that, "the love of micromanagement". Sometimes I do enjoy moving workers all over the palce. So what? Why are all of you looking at me like I'm crazy?

The modern era is great when you can build up an army of like 50 workers....

No seriously, the interaction between workers and militaries (i.e. captured workers) is a cool feature. I always think "Army Corp of Engineers" when my workers are building roads, fortifications, etc.

I know CtP has the slaver, and can do all the worker functions without the micromanagement....hence my answer. I like both systems.

	12-02-2005 02:14									#13
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PW, automation hasn't done what I wanted it to... Whenever you can simpify without taking away fron the game do so. Also, remember Soren has the last word, and if we simplify some things, we may be able to get more features we really want in the game.

	12-02-2005 08:46									#14
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Both. Public works systesm within your territory, gangs of workers outside of it, or in it if you really wanted it for some reason. I would much rather be able to say :irrigate from here to here, clear all these forests, and then railroad it all by a few clicks on a map than having to deal with 20 workers. It also allows one to do it fatsre if you simply pump in more and more people into it, more and more money. On the other hand, if I want to make a road to somewhrre deep outside my bounderies, it should be gangs of workers.

	12-02-2005 14:01									#15
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PW

the more you increase the more you can do- - without having to worry about supporting the unit

nothing like having 2,000 to spend a turn late in the game

	13-02-2005 10:21									#16
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Cybershy.

Less of the newbie stuff please- their points are as valid as anyone else's.
For the record, I brought Civilization when it first came out on the Atari, and I still have my orginal PC game, but probably make less interesting posts than most newbies.

I do agree with you however on the value of a physical worker on the board- the fact they can be both killed or captured leaves me with no end of logistical nightmares early in the game with barbarians afoot- defend the city or the workers "just in case", is a common dilema I face, but it's fun.

All;

Automating workers in Civ 2 and 3 is a waste of time for me- they never do what you wish they would. I only ever use the Shift-P for them, and boy is it needed in Civ 3.

I think GePap has a good point- why not allow us to still build a worker unit and have a public works system?; building roads outside your territory will always need workers.

What I really miss is the "select all" feature in Civ 2 so that you could move 12 units in a single turn- that was really useful and I was shocked to see it gone in Civ 3.

I only play on huge maps and moving 150 workers to the border after a nation has declared war on you simply isn't fun, combine that with 80-odd military units heading the same way it gets mightily boring.

I think the solution GePap offers is an excellent one: both is good, and at the end of a turn you can reduce or increase public work spending, but you'll still have the workers you built regardless.

Toby

	13-02-2005 16:36									#17
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My vote goes to anything but PW... I simply hate it

PW system is nowhere less micromanagement than workers, so it's not better than having workers...
I also never got used to it while I was playing ctp. Often it went very many turns before I remebered to build something. Often I could upgrade half the country because I've saved up so much PW

	13-02-2005 19:35									#18
	Increase Your PM Length

I've said this before in some other thread that's disappeared into the void, but:

I vote for a hybrid system. Workers work the land doing whatever you specifically instruct them to do. If they run out of stuff to do, they check in with the "Public Works Administrator". The PWA is a central location where you can cue up worker priorities like roads vs. irrigation vs. mining, etc. etc.

The PWA would also allow you to "paint" on the game map a la SimCity where you would like workers to build something. So for instance, you "paint" a road between City A and B, and what appears on the map is a transparent "ghost road" that shows your intention to build a road there. When a worker in the area runs out of specific directions, it will go to the "ghost road" and start filling it in.

	17-02-2005 03:53									#19
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Hi mate,

Nah! Not for me. A cost slider for public works and the ability to also build workers is what I'd like, but I fear they have a huge radical change in the offing for Civ 4, such to make talk like this redundant.

If it's to be in 3D, I can't see how workers can be logically used within that type of environ compared to a top-down 2D view- you simply can't get the type of perspective needed to use workers gainfully.

Toby

	17-02-2005 03:58									#20
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I assume the 3D is just as much "3D" as SMAC, so no huge change...

	17-02-2005 07:34									#21
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hybrid

	17-02-2005 09:23									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Adagio My vote goes to anything but PW... I simply hate it PW system is nowhere less micromanagement than workers, so it's not better than having workers... I also never got used to it while I was playing ctp. Often it went very many turns before I remebered to build something. Often I could upgrade half the country because I've saved up so much PW

Er... that was the point, you take production from each city builds to gather public works. If you had so much to upgrade half the country then you didnt have enough buildings or military. Just like you could only build workers and upgrade everything as soon as possible, but never build military or granaries etc.

Id like to hear why you say PW system is "nowhere less micromanagement", or was it just a thoughtless remark youd seen someone else say?

	17-02-2005 09:49									#23
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Well,

The only time I disliked micro-management was clearing up pollution time after-time after turn after turn, especially cities you captured that had both the dreaded hospital and aquaduct, yet you are forbidden to sell them.

This level of micro-management is considered only fun by the programmers, and I doubt they tried a game.
That sounds harsh- sorry, Publishing houses dictate when games are published, not the programmers- Sorry, I just wish they'd stand up just once to the house and say "this game ain't finished"

Fun for me is shaping a city- either by PW or workers, having both would be great as you must still build the unit- but a unit can travel in other nations as some bloke above mentioned, whilst PW cannot, and if Civ 4 also has poor AI, then a worker will be needed- don't forget we don't yet know the time-scale or budget the programmers have.

Toby

Last edited by Toby Rowe on 17-02-2005 at 09:57

	17-02-2005 09:56									#24
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PW can travel by using forts. Forts extend your national border, so you then build roads in the new borders. Or you can take a settler, settle a city outside your border, build roads in the new border and disband the city in the same turn.

	17-02-2005 10:31									#25
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Hi mate,

don't you simply think the fact that you can have public Works and also build a worker unit to do with what you will is simple and effective?

If we still do view the world through a top-down view in Civ 4 and if faced with the current AI level in Civ 3, then I want a road linking all cities on my borders to the nations that will eventually attack me. It's as useful to me as it is to them, however irritating the AI is.

It of course also allows you to complete the road network for trade as most border nations take until about 1200 and Industrialisation before they complete the entire world link on a contintental map. One of their distant neighbours will use a road to attack you, but hey, at least the trade link is done, and you will get money per turn until they each decide to attack you for no reason at all.

Still, without the workers in 3, trade links would be a long time arriving, and in the diplomacy window you can only see less than half of the nations, those that you can see, the AI often insists no trade is possible, "talk" to them and it simply isn't so, cntrl+RC to change a nation is simply very boring.

Toby

Toby

	17-02-2005 10:42									#26
	Increase Your PM Length

Building forts to extend/protect your "external" roads can be as fast or as slow as you want it with PW. If you want trade badly enough you prepare and build the network.

Workers or PW for external roads, either is good for me. Its the using tens-hundreds of workers at once I object to, I have better things to do with my time.

	17-02-2005 16:51									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora Er... that was the point, you take production from each city builds to gather public works. If you had so much to upgrade half the country then you didnt have enough buildings or military. Just like you could only build workers and upgrade everything as soon as possible, but never build military or granaries etc.

You didn't get my point I see...

What is better (considering you're not going to get better improvements soon):

1) Build an improvement as soon as can afford it (whatever you want to build)
2) Build imrovements all over the country in one turn, and probably end up with more PW than you need (This happens much later than the first option)

The first option is of course better since you get the imrpovement faster, and at the time you can afford to upgrade the whole nation you've already got enough PW to do it anyway, so option 2 doesn't give any advantages...
My problem is I always "picked" option 2 because I kept forgetting about PW

quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora Id like to hear why you say PW system is "nowhere less micromanagement", or was it just a thoughtless remark youd seen someone else say?

I just don't see workers being "too much" micromanagement. And when I compare how much time I spent on workers compared to how much time I spent on PW there's no big difference...

	17-02-2005 19:32									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Adagio You didn't get my point I see... What is better (considering you're not going to get better improvements soon): 1) Build an improvement as soon as can afford it (whatever you want to build) 2) Build imrovements all over the country in one turn, and probably end up with more PW than you need (This happens much later than the first option) The first option is of course better since you get the imrpovement faster, and at the time you can afford to upgrade the whole nation you've already got enough PW to do it anyway, so option 2 doesn't give any advantages... My problem is I always "picked" option 2 because I kept forgetting about PW

Then the problem lies with you forgetting to use a game feature, for whatever reason.

	17-02-2005 20:25									#29
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But the point is still the same: even if I remembered to use it there wouldn't be any advantages over workers

	17-02-2005 21:18									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Adagio What is better (considering you're not going to get better improvements soon): 1) Build an improvement as soon as can afford it (whatever you want to build) 2) Build imrovements all over the country in one turn, and probably end up with more PW than you need (This happens much later than the first option) The first option is of course better since you get the imrpovement faster, and at the time you can afford to upgrade the whole nation you've already got enough PW to do it anyway, so option 2 doesn't give any advantages... My problem is I always "picked" option 2 because I kept forgetting about PW

Point being???? Both systems (PW and worker) offer the opportunity to do option 1 ASAP. As Maq pointed out, the designers have no control over a player forgetting to do something in the game.

Which leaves the amount of micromanagement as the main issue...

quote: Originally posted by Adagio I just don't see workers being "too much" micromanagement. And when I compare how much time I spent on workers compared to how much time I spent on PW there's no big difference...

The end result is still the same - the creation of a tile improvement. The journey to get to that point is what makes me grind my teeth.

I do find your statement somewhat hard to believe - having played both games extensively, I do find that the actual time involved in selecting 100+ workers in the current civ3 system and then sending them (even with the 'go to' command) to diferent locations, and then having to issue a build command for EACH UNIT once it gets there (more mind-numbing mouse clicks) to be much greater than than in a PW-based system. Not to mention that workers sometimes take multiple turns to get to a location - meanwhile other workers may end up finishing their tasks that may also be close to where you wanted to build that initial TI, so you end up inadvertantly sending those units to that spot, which ends up becoming an inefficient mess...

...as opposed to ONE single mouse click per TI in a PW setup - and you know at all times what is being done every turn because the visual is clearly presented on the map. No searching for workers, no need to recall just what workers are going to what location...What is especially frustrating in civ3 is that once you re-select a worker in transit, the orders you had for it are automatically cleared. More mouse clicking...

Forgive me for rolling my eyes at that... But different strokes for different folks.

I do agree that the ease of mass-building TIs with PW funds can be overpowering once your economy is humming. Setting your PW to 80% allows for a lot of TIs to be built quickly. Still, that is a gameplay balancing issue and not a game concept issue (big difference) that can be fixed via a PW cap or an gradual adjustment in cost of TIs based on the age the game is in.

IMO, the best idea I've heard is still a combination of the 2 systems. PW funds used within your borders and a worker requirement to build outside your borders, as well as the potential use of workers to speed up construction time once you make an outlay with your PW funds to build a Tile Improvement.

As it stands now, the PW/fort/disband city setup in CTP2 is closer to that ideal than the current civ3 setup.