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Admiral is offline Admiral
Warlord
of the peace and coexistance movement
Feb 2001
time: 00:25
  Old Post 11-02-2005 13:15
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Dare I say it? I dare! Class warfare! Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote:
Bush's Class-War Budget
By PAUL KRUGMAN

It may sound shrill to describe President Bush as someone who takes food from the mouths of babes and gives the proceeds to his millionaire friends. Yet his latest budget proposal is top-down class warfare in action. And it offers the Democrats an opportunity, if they're willing to take it.

First, the facts: the budget proposal really does take food from the mouths of babes. One of the proposed spending cuts would make it harder for working families with children to receive food stamps, terminating aid for about 300,000 people. Another would deny child care assistance to about 300,000 children, again in low-income working families.

And the budget really does shower largesse on millionaires even as it punishes the needy. For example, the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities informs us that even as the administration demands spending cuts, it will proceed with the phaseout of two little-known tax provisions - originally put in place under the first President George Bush - that limit deductions and exemptions for high-income households.

More than half of the benefits from this backdoor tax cut would go to people with incomes of more than a million dollars; 97 percent would go to people with incomes exceeding $200,000.

It so happens that the number of taxpayers with more than $1 million in annual income is about the same as the number of people who would have their food stamps cut off under the Bush proposal. But it costs a lot more to give a millionaire a break than to put food on a low-income family's table: eliminating limits on deductions and exemptions would give taxpayers with incomes over $1 million an average tax cut of more than $19,000.

It's like that all the way through. On one side, the budget calls for program cuts that are small change compared with the budget deficit, yet will harm hundreds of thousands of the most vulnerable Americans. On the other side, it calls for making tax cuts for the wealthy permanent, and for new tax breaks for the affluent in the form of tax-sheltered accounts and more liberal rules for deductions.

The question is whether the relentless mean-spiritedness of this budget finally awakens the public to the true cost of Mr. Bush's tax policy.

Until now, the administration has been able to get away with the pretense that it can offset the revenue loss from tax cuts with benign spending restraint. That's because until now, "restraint" was an abstract concept, not tied to specific actions, making it seem as if spending cuts would hurt only a few special interest groups.

But here we are with the first demonstration of restraint in action, and look what's on the chopping block, selected for big cuts: the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, health insurance for children and aid to law enforcement. (Yes, Mr. Bush proposes to cut farm subsidies, which are truly wasteful. Let's see how much political capital he spends on that proposal.)

Until now, the administration has also been able to pretend that the budget deficit isn't an important issue so the role of tax cuts in causing that deficit can be ignored. But Mr. Bush has at last conceded that the deficit is indeed a major problem.

Why shouldn't the affluent, who have done so well from Mr. Bush's policies, pay part of the price of dealing with that problem?

Here's a comparison: the Bush budget proposal would cut domestic discretionary spending, adjusted for inflation, by 16 percent over the next five years. That would mean savage cuts in education, health care, veterans' benefits and environmental protection. Yet these cuts would save only about $66 billion per year, about one-sixth of the budget deficit.

On the other side, a rollback of Mr. Bush's cuts in tax rates for high-income brackets, on capital gains and on dividend income would yield more than $120 billion per year in extra revenue - eliminating almost a third of the budget deficit - yet have hardly any effect on middle-income families. (Estimates from the Tax Policy Center of the Urban Institute and the Brookings Institution show that such a rollback would cost families with incomes between $25,000 and $80,000 an average of $156.)

Why, then, shouldn't a rollback of high-end tax cuts be on the table?

Democrats have surprised the Bush administration, and themselves, by effectively pushing back against Mr. Bush's attempt to dismantle Social Security. It's time for them to broaden their opposition, and push back against Mr. Bush's tax policy.


Feel free to comment, as long as it isn't a snide remark about Krugman's past (has no bearing on the article. Otherwise, i'd have no objection).

Bosh is offline Bosh
Emperor
Taehan Mingook
Jan 1970
time: 00:25
  Old Post 11-02-2005 13:32
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What's up with Krugman's past I thought he was just an econ-prof turned columnist.

Combat Ingrid is offline Combat Ingrid
Chieftain
Satan's Majestic Empire
Nov 2001
time: 06:25
  Old Post 11-02-2005 15:19
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What are you complaining about? Alabama will still be richer than Sweden, so life can't be all that bad in your wonderful country, right?

molly bloom is offline molly bloom
Prince
Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:25
  Old Post 11-02-2005 15:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Combat Ingrid
What are you complaining about? Alabama will still be richer than Sweden, so life can't be all that bad in your wonderful country, right?


Richer than Croesus and more unhealthy than the Congo.


Good deal.

Dr Zoidberg is offline Dr Zoidberg

King
Communist Party of Apolyton
Jan 2002
time: 06:25
  Old Post 11-02-2005 15:30
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Now, there´s right wing politics for you.

EVIL! EVIL!

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
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Sep 2001
time: 21:25
  Old Post 11-02-2005 16:10
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Poor people don't give campaign contributions while rich people do. That's the only math Bush is ever interested in.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
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  Old Post 11-02-2005 19:31 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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Did you guys know that they have been using the compasionate conservative crap since the 80s with Reagan? They always have a reason why doing this type of stuff actually helps the poor.

GePap is offline GePap
King
of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
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  Old Post 11-02-2005 19:45
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The stock rightwing response would be "the rich will reinvest, create more jobs, more wealth, and those people being cut will be better off!"

Of course, is that was true in any way, those programs would not have to have been created in the first place, but lets not let real human suffering get in the way of TEH GOVERNMENT EVIL!!!. It makes such great bumper stickers.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
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  Old Post 11-02-2005 19:50 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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I don't forget that it's ok to support right wing dictators who protect the poor people from communism.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
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  Old Post 11-02-2005 19:57 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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btw, does anyone think that if communism became a real threat in the US that these people wouldn't support a right wing dictatorship or fascism?

Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
King
Marietta, GA
Dec 1999
time: 05:25
  Old Post 11-02-2005 21:26
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
The stock rightwing response would be "the rich will reinvest, create more jobs, more wealth, and those people being cut will be better off!"

Of course, is that was true in any way, those programs would not have to have been created in the first place, but lets not let real human suffering get in the way of TEH GOVERNMENT EVIL!!!. It makes such great bumper stickers.


'cepting the time period of times past when those programs were initially created (i.e. excesses fed the rich and deprived the poor) existed in times of relative isolationism/regional economies.

With the advent of global competition the picture deserves to be re-looked at as it now makes sense to foster atmospheres of attracting business to US shores as opposed to punatively placing the burdens on companies and make them hasten their departure to offshore.

As one poster put it, 2 primary forces act to create economic growth. Available capital and technological superiority with technological superority (innovation) being a much lesser sustainable advantage.

GePap is offline GePap
King
of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:25
  Old Post 11-02-2005 21:48
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quote:
With the advent of global competition the picture deserves to be re-looked at as it now makes sense to foster atmospheres of attracting business to US shores as opposed to punatively placing the burdens on companies and make them hasten their departure to offshore.


INcome taxes have nothing to do with "punative actions that sacre corporations", nor do cutting back on basic aide to people.

The US todays is much friendlier to business than it was when these programs began- the tax burden todays is much smaller than in was in 1980- that has not stopped business from leavingn the country anyways.

The bottom line is that the market by itself does nothing to "help" people. That is not the point of the market. So if we want to help the poor, it won't be a "market solution", because such a thing for poverty does not exist.

PLATO is offline PLATO

King
Of the occupied South
Dec 2002
time: 23:25
  Old Post 11-02-2005 22:01
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I...uh...


Have to agree with Gepap...


* PLATO runs away and hides from fellow conservatives.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:25
  Old Post 11-02-2005 22:06
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quote:
Did you guys know that they have been using the compasionate conservative crap since the 80s with Reagan?


Reagan... compassionate conservatism? When?

Oh, and gutting food stamps for Bush's deficit busting programs?

Shogun Gunner is offline Shogun Gunner

Emperor
Potomac Falls, Virginia
Oct 2000
time: 00:25
  Old Post 11-02-2005 22:08 Visit Shogun Gunner<br><a href=/members><img src=/forums/images/supporter-icon.gif border=0></a><BR>'s homepage!
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It's hard to be a fiscal conservative with this "new republicanism" attempting to define the party and right wing agenda. I really appreciate the repubs moving so far to the right that I'm left alone in the middle.

PLATO is offline PLATO

King
Of the occupied South
Dec 2002
time: 23:25
  Old Post 11-02-2005 22:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Shogun Gunner
It's hard to be a fiscal conservative with this "new republicanism" attempting to define the party and right wing agenda. I really appreciate the repubs moving so far to the right that I'm left alone in the middle.


Your not alone...

Zulu Elephant is offline Zulu Elephant
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Jun 1999
time: 05:25
  Old Post 11-02-2005 22:15
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
The bottom line is that the market by itself does nothing to "help" people. That is not the point of the market. So if we want to help the poor, it won't be a "market solution", because such a thing for poverty does not exist.



Reminds me of this quote from the insanely funny book "Things can only get better" by John O'Farrell about his time as Labour supporter in the 1980s (when Labour were left wing loonies in the wilderness)

quote:
I remembered a political argument I had during the election campaign with a Conservative friend of my parents. He had said to me: "The reason I am voting Conservative is because I do not believe in interfering with in the marketplace. You have to allow the market to decide everything."

To which I said: "Sorry, who is this 'Market' bloke? Who elected him then? Listen, the market is something we have created for our own purposes, not some law of physics as unchangeable as the bbing of the tides or the waning of the moon. When you Conservatives say that you cannot interfere with the market what you really mean is you cannot interfere with me - with my desire to make as much money as I can, at the expense of everyone else. The market is our servant, something we have created - if it is causing poverty and destitution then we must interfere to stop it doing these things."

Or was this the reply that I came up with that night in bed, reconstructing the argument in my head? Yes, that's right...my actual reply to his point had been, "Oh, that's just Tory rubbish"

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:25
  Old Post 11-02-2005 22:18 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by PLATO
I...uh...


Have to agree with Gepap...


* PLATO runs away and hides from fellow conservatives.


Ehhhxellent! The PLATO project is beginning to bear results.

Richelieu is offline Richelieu
Warlord
Gatineau
Dec 2001
time: 00:25
  Old Post 11-02-2005 22:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Zulu Elephant
quote:
I remembered a political argument I had during the election campaign with a Conservative friend of my parents. He had said to me: "The reason I am voting Conservative is because I do not believe in interfering with in the marketplace. You have to allow the market to decide everything."

To which I said: "Sorry, who is this 'Market' bloke? Who elected him then? Listen, the market is something we have created for our own purposes, not some law of physics as unchangeable as the bbing of the tides or the waning of the moon. When you Conservatives say that you cannot interfere with the market what you really mean is you cannot interfere with me - with my desire to make as much money as I can, at the expense of everyone else. The market is our servant, something we have created - if it is causing poverty and destitution then we must interfere to stop it doing these things."

Or was this the reply that I came up with that night in bed, reconstructing the argument in my head? Yes, that's right...my actual reply to his point had been, "Oh, that's just Tory rubbish"




Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:25
  Old Post 11-02-2005 22:22 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
quote:
Did you guys know that they have been using the compasionate conservative crap since the 80s with Reagan?


Reagan... compassionate conservatism? When?

Oh, and gutting food stamps for Bush's deficit busting programs?


They called it other things like trickle down economics.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:25
  Old Post 11-02-2005 22:24 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
As one poster put it, 2 primary forces act to create economic growth. Available capital and technological superiority with technological superority (innovation) being a much lesser sustainable advantage.


I thought you were going to say supply and demand, but this makes less sense than that.

Flubber is offline Flubber
Emperor
With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:25
  Old Post 11-02-2005 23:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Shogun Gunner
It's hard to be a fiscal conservative with this "new republicanism" attempting to define the party and right wing agenda. I really appreciate the repubs moving so far to the right that I'm left alone in the middle.


I'm more and more happy to be a Canadian.

I'm amazed . . .. the US has always seemed to have worse social programs than almost any of the richer nations and they seem to be systematically stripping them.

My support for capitalism has always been of a regulated version with a reasonably strong social safety net. I see this type of mix as a good balance of some somewhat competing interests. One is the interest in personal freedom and liberty and includes the ability to accumulate wealth . In contrast, a society should protect its citizenry and do what it can to provide a reasonable standard of living for all .

Thats why I accept progressive taxation-- I don't consider it necessarily "fair" but if applied reasonably ( and I accept that this is subjective) it can be an effective means of funding government by sharing the burden a little more among those with a greater ability to pay

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:25
  Old Post 11-02-2005 23:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
They called it other things like trickle down economics.


Trickle down economics = compassionate conservatism? What in the Hell?

Kid, you really don't reside on this planet, do you?

Shogun Gunner is offline Shogun Gunner

Emperor
Potomac Falls, Virginia
Oct 2000
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Don't you think that if most Americans truly felt that the economic policies didn't benefit them, they wouldn't vote for the candidates that support these policies...

Oh wait, I hear something along the lines of "citizens aren't educated..." "citizens don't care about politics..." "people don't vote..."

Well then, who's fault is it then really? One must participate to benefit, have a voice and make proper decisions. Sorry, the government shouldn't have to worry about things to that degree.

mrmitchell is offline mrmitchell
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Donate to the Red Cross

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  Old Post 11-02-2005 23:49
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quote:
The stock rightwing response would be "the rich will reinvest, create more jobs, more wealth, and those people being cut will be better off!"


Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
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  Old Post 11-02-2005 23:56 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


Trickle down economics = compassionate conservatism? What in the Hell?

Kid, you really don't reside on this planet, do you?


No I don't reside on republicaniverse. That's where you live.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
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Sandman is offline Sandman
Prince
Sinister Penguin
Aug 2001
time: 05:25
  Old Post 12-02-2005 00:17
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The thing is, normal Americans will support stuff like this, just like apparently ordinary Americans get angry at pollution controls and the minimum wage.

Zkribbler is offline Zkribbler
King
Los Angeles, CA, USA
Feb 1999
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  Old Post 12-02-2005 00:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
As one poster put it, 2 primary forces act to create economic growth. Available capital and technological superiority with technological superority (innovation) being a much lesser sustainable advantage.


You forgot a well educated/well trained workforce and consumers with to spend.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
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  Old Post 12-02-2005 00:58
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China has had great economic growth, but I'm not sure how much I'd say about their workforce's education & training and consumers with money to spend .

quote:
No I don't reside on republicaniverse. That's where you live.


If by Republicaniverse, you mean the planet Earth.

 
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