12-02-2005 16:16									#91
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Yeah, that would sure show us.

	12-02-2005 16:50									#92
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It's a deal.

	12-02-2005 20:20									#93
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk I'm not saying it dosen't happen. I just don't see it happening with Syria.

Syria has a secular government run by members of an obscure Islamic group (The Alawites) and is no friend of AQ- they have plenty of reasons to beat and torture people- its been reported since 2002 that the US had sent people to Syria to be "interrogated", and IIRC, Syria was given a little bit of Kudos prior to the Iraq war for their "help" in this regard. Very little internet investigation would show you this was the case. Remember that most of these actions were pre-Iraq, around 2002 when it came to Syria.

I am also pretty saddened by the many responses to the thread- there is no way to justify what was done to Arar, period.

	12-02-2005 20:30									#94
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse He was a canadian citizen who was "caught"

A duel national you mean. Those little facts are so annoy, aren't they?

	12-02-2005 20:42									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin A duel national you mean. Those little facts are so annoy, aren't they?

He was travelling on a Canadian passport, so even if he was still a Syrian citizen( AFAIR the piece does not state he was a duel citizen,. only of Syrian nationality) he had rights that were violated when the Canadian government was not told- If I remmeber, you were doing some arguing about Ahnolds Austrain citizenship not too long ago, and yet currently you seemt o be saying that this man's Canadian citizenship could be ignored out of hand, even if his connections to Syria wewre teneous at best.

	12-02-2005 22:39									#96
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No, I don't want to take away anyone's citizenship. But if the guy is to be deported and is possibly a danger then the government has the duty to protect the people. Since he has two nationalities we get to choose which country to send him back to. The government did the right thing and sent him as far away from the US as possible.

There is nothing wrong or illegal about that either.

	12-02-2005 22:52									#97
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Is this Stockholm Syndome? This blows my mind. There is no reason a free people should support sending someone to be tortured. This can't be in the people's best interest.

Last edited by Kidicious on 12-02-2005 at 23:05

	12-02-2005 23:06									#98
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quote: Since he has two nationalities we get to choose which country to send him back to.

what a messed up law. the more i think about it, the more i think that the US constitution and laws blow, and so does americas form of democracy. the hypocritcal shouts of 'we are for freedom' just dont seem to do justice to the irony.


Article 25 of the Swiss Constitution (ammended 2002, all articles are a result of direct democracy)

1. Swiss citizens may not be expelled from the country; they may be extradited to a foreign authority only with their consent.

2. Refugees may not be removed by force or extradited to a state in which they are persecuted

3. No person shall be removed by force to a state where he or she is threatened by torture, or another means of cruel and inhuman treatment or punishment.

how is it that america, the so called 'land of the free' has none of these freedoms. why doesnt americas govt protect its citizens and those living inside its borders?

	12-02-2005 23:09									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia what a messed up law. the more i think about it, the more i think that the US constitution and laws blow, and so does americas form of democracy. the hypocritcal shouts of 'we are for freedom' just dont seem to do justice to the irony. Article 25 of the Swiss Constitution (ammended 2002, all articles are a result of direct democracy) 1. Swiss citizens may not be expelled from the country; they may be extradited to a foreign authority only with their consent. 2. Refugees may not be removed by force or extradited to a state in which they are persecuted 3. No person shall be removed by force to a state where he or she is threatened by torture, or another means of cruel and inhuman treatment or punishment. how is it that america, the so called 'land of the free' has none of these freedoms. why doesnt americas govt protect its citizens and those living inside its borders?

Because America is not a small, mountainous country, with a small population, and a neutral stance that capitalizes on the ability to circumvent other countries banking laws.

	12-02-2005 23:12									#100
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quote: Because America is not a small, mountainous country, with a small population, and a neutral stance that capitalizes on the ability to circumvent other countries banking laws.

because you think that ignoring my post and talking about something completely unrelated makes you right?

	12-02-2005 23:13									#101
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Man, guys. This news is ancient in Canada. And don't listen to KH, he's been out of Canada too long.

The fact is it was a huge **** up on both sides. As it turned out, when the US authorities got a hold of Arar they called the RCMP and they pretty much told the US Arar was a suspected terrorist.

Moral is: If you're the US and you have a Canadian citizen - let Canada deal with them. And if you're Canada and you want to protect your citizen (who also has Syrian citizenship) - don't tell the US of all places they're a suspected terrorist.

Clearly the RCMP dropped the ball on this one.

Edit: There was a huge public inquiry into this case... and the RCMP came out looking like idiots. This of course doesn't excuse the fact that the US sent him off to be tortured... but still, what did the RCMP think would happen?

	12-02-2005 23:15									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia because you think that ignoring my post and talking about something completely unrelated makes you right?

I responded to your comparison!

	12-02-2005 23:21									#103
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quote: U.S. says Canada placed Arar's name on 'terrorist list' Last Updated Thu, 27 Jan 2005 21:45:48 EST CBC News OTTAWA - Maher Arar has received an answer to one of his questions about how he landed in a Syrian prison. It comes in a letter that was released Thursday by U.S. officials. * INDEPTH: Maher Arar Maher Arar (File photo) "It basically confirms my suspicions and my lawyer's suspicions about the involvement of Canadian officials in all of this," said Arar. The letter says "Mr. Arar's name was placed on a terrorist lookout list based on information received from Canada ..." That's the first official confirmation from the U.S. that Arar was in their sights solely because of Canadian security intelligence. It says further that "the decision to remove Mr. Arar ... was made by U.S. government officials based on our own assessment of the security threat."

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/nati...arar050127.html

	12-02-2005 23:23									#104
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quote: I responded to your comparison!

but none of your points is a reason why america shouldnt protect its people.
mountainous? small population? baanking laws? what does that have to do with not being able to have laws that protect a person living in america from being extradited to a country that will torture them?

	12-02-2005 23:26									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia but none of your points is a reason why america shouldnt protect its people. mountainous? small population? baanking laws? what does that have to do with not being able to have laws that protect a person living in america from being extradited to a country that will torture them?

Well the point is that Switzerland and the United States are two completely different countries with two different circumstances, different responsibilities, different forms of government, and different threats.

And really, why should I try to answer a loaded question? "Why doesn't America protect its people?" - It does! The problem is that some of it's people are terrorists!

	12-02-2005 23:29									#106
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LA and Tuttle:

You realize this doesn't have much to do with Arar, right? Arar wasn't even in the US, except for an hour or two at La Guardia to switch flights. He was going back to Canada from Tunisia. He had Canadian and Syrian citizenship.

	12-02-2005 23:32									#107
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn LA and Tuttle: You realize this doesn't have much to do with Arar, right? Arar wasn't even in the US, except for an hour or two at La Guardia to switch flights. He was going back to Canada from Tunisia. He had Canadian and Syrian citizenship.

I'm just responding to LA's post about America protecting its citizens. This whole thread has been a pile since it was started.

	12-02-2005 23:47									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Harry Tuttle Well the point is that Switzerland and the United States are two completely different countries with two different circumstances, different responsibilities, different forms of government, and different threats. And really, why should I try to answer a loaded question? "Why doesn't America protect its people?" - It does! The problem is that some of it's people are terrorists!

Neither Switzerland or Syria have you by the balls, so maybe you rationalize everything the US does, because you don't want to experience fear.

	12-02-2005 23:50									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Neither Switzerland or Syria have you by the balls, so maybe you rationalize everything the US does, because you don't want to experience fear.

Yeah that's it Kid. Good summation. Nice and articulate.

	12-02-2005 23:52									#110
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I think so. What other reason could there be for people not being disturbed when their govt sends people to be tortured?

	12-02-2005 23:57									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I think so. What other reason could there be for people not being disturbed when their govt sends people to be tortured?

Because "Syria and Switzerland don't have you by the balls" is a reason?

	13-02-2005 00:12									#112
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quote: And really, why should I try to answer a loaded question? "Why doesn't America protect its people?" - It does! The problem is that some of it's people are terrorists!

then prosecute them - and put them through the american legal system. if they are guilty, then theres no reason to be worried that they dont get convicted. you can still prosecute terrorits, and have a law that prevents people in your country from being deported to a country where they can experience torture.

	13-02-2005 00:13									#113
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It would be reasonable not to care whether Switzerland or Syria torture people, but unreasonable to not care if the US tortures people, because you are a US citizen. There's always the danger of the US toturing it's own citizen's. If you don't recognize that danger you must be rationalizing situations to avoid fear.

	13-02-2005 00:25									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious It would be reasonable not to care whether Switzerland or Syria torture people, but unreasonable to not care if the US tortures people, because you are a US citizen. There's always the danger of the US toturing it's own citizen's. If you don't recognize that danger you must be rationalizing situations to avoid fear.

Or maybe I just don't care? Maybe you see things in black and white?

quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia then prosecute them - and put them through the american legal system. if they are guilty, then theres no reason to be worried that they dont get convicted. you can still prosecute terrorits, and have a law that prevents people in your country from being deported to a country where they can experience torture.

Ok, sure. To bad this whole hulabaloo was about a Canadian/Syrian.

	13-02-2005 00:30									#115
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quote: Ok, sure. To bad this whole hulabaloo was about a Canadian/Syrian.

who was in america, and instead of being deported to CANADA, he got deported to Syria. now thats barbaric. and canadian/syrians can still be tried under US courts, it doesnt change anything.

	13-02-2005 00:47									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia who was in america, and instead of being deported to CANADA, he got deported to Syria. now thats barbaric. and canadian/syrians can still be tried under US courts, it doesnt change anything.

Actually it does change things. In fact, you were just arguing about American citizens.

In fact, as Jimmy just mentioned, it was a screw up. So why is this still being debated?

	13-02-2005 00:57									#117
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To show what happens when you decide torture is ok for some people.

	13-02-2005 01:03									#118
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And why due process is a good idea.

	13-02-2005 01:06									#119
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quote: Actually it does change things. In fact, you were just arguing about American citizens.

nah, you gotta read more carefully. i wasnt only talking about american CITIZENS i was also talking about people who live in America. i dont think i used 'american citizen' once in the last coupla posts.

	13-02-2005 01:08									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia who was in america, and instead of being deported to CANADA, he got deported to Syria. now thats barbaric. and canadian/syrians can still be tried under US courts, it doesnt change anything.

It's barbaric to send people back to their country of origin where they are a citizen?

They talked to the Canadians all through out the process so its not like this was a big surprise to Canada.