16-02-2005 06:07									#31
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Even Barry Melrose now believe a deal is imminent.

	16-02-2005 06:16									#32
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It'd be cool if there was a shortened season. That way the geriatric Leafs would have a chance to get to the playoffs without the team being dead on their feet.

	16-02-2005 07:49									#33
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I just find it strangely hilarious how, just like that, we move from "season definitely cancelled" to "deal is imminent" the second the owners finally stop acting like whiny hard-asses and begin negotiating with the players for real. Was it so difficult, Bettman? Apparantly so, because if the owners had done this back in October they would have been playing for weeks now...

	16-02-2005 08:06									#34
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Yeah, it was the owners acting like hard asses... did you miss the point where the UNION agreed to a cap for the first time at the 11th hour?

	16-02-2005 09:33									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Problem is that without a 'save the season' hanging over the heads of both parties, there will be no impetus for a deal at this point in time. The longer the two sides wait, the more ****ed the NHL is going to be.

No, the more ****ed more players are going to be. All that has to happen is at least 8 owners stick to their guns and this silliness of the players running the league will be done.

	16-02-2005 09:34									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I'm not saying that a super short season won't suck, but it may be necessary to save the game, no matter how crap.

Maybe in Georgia or the Carolinas, but not where hockey matters.

	16-02-2005 09:45									#37
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Maybe in Georgia or the Carolinas, but not where hockey matters.

If this deadline wasn't a determining factor, there is NO way that the sides get this close together. If it wasn't for that, who knows when the sides would have gotten together. The elite players (and the union reps) will just go to Europe and play there.

	16-02-2005 09:51									#38
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The only coming together that has happened is the players realise they are well and truely screwed, because enough owners are standing behind Bettman and they are willing to let the season go so they don't have to write paychecks that their franchises can't support.

In short, the players who are each losing millions as individuals are going 'oh, ****, the boss is serious that my union doesn't run the league anymore. **** the union, get me on the ice so I can at least earn a quarter of my salary. The mortgage is due.'

	16-02-2005 09:54									#39
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In short, getting the game on the ice for people in Tampa or Atlanta or Los Angeles is not going to be the salvation of the game. Having Calgary or Boston or Vancouver being able to be serious contenders year in and year out is.

	16-02-2005 09:58									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Ming I also wouldn't mind seeing Wirtz, the owner of the Black Hawks, drop dead so that maybe a new owner would actually try to win

Not sure of the circumstances of the Hawks, but why should an owner be forced to flush money to bring home cups?

Shouldn't the league be able to support 24 or so teams that all have a chance to win on their own strength without needing a sugar-daddy to pump millions into it?

	16-02-2005 10:05									#41
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither In short, getting the game on the ice for people in Tampa or Atlanta or Los Angeles is not going to be the salvation of the game. Having Calgary or Boston or Vancouver being able to be serious contenders year in and year out is.

Because having the NHL not be around for 1.5 to 2 years will save the game? Perhaps it's just that you don't know what happens to a sport when the championship is trophy. Baseball was devestated when the World Series was canceled. It's a HUGE deal and a lot of hard core fans decided to tell the game to screw off for letting their greed get in the way and cancel the championship. That will harm the NHL much more.

Besides, a salary cup, while good business sense, doesn't guarentee Calgary or Boston or Vancouver being serious contenders year in an year out. Look at the NFL's salary cap... most teams won't be serious contenders year in and year out (they may contend one year and then fall back to the pack the next... only a few will break out of it).

	16-02-2005 10:11									#42
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The damage has been done to Tampa and the Canes.

Best to see it through so that the heart of hockey (those cities with a population who live with snow and can be expected to have been exposed to skates, if not hockey itself while children) keeps beating at a healthy pace.

A healthy pace means being able to sustain viable teams without requiring cash infusions from owners with more money than sense. Get a good manager, and build a good team based on heart and loyalty, and you should be able to compete.

	16-02-2005 10:14									#43
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Who IS talking about Tampa and the Canes? You aren't seeing the picture. There are polls showing that 40% of Canadians don't give a damn that the NHL isn't currently around. That number will just grow the longer it gets. People say the hard core fans will come back, but the longer a labor situation goes, and ESPECIALLY if a championship is called off, more and more hard core fans will say both sides stick and tell them to sod off. We've seen it south of the border already. And its a long process to get it back.

	16-02-2005 10:14									#44
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Oh, and people will go back to the game from Vancouver to New York and Philidelphia, when the frackus is over.

If a few fans who would rather watch a tractor pull were lost, **** 'em and their franchises. Hockey does not need the Dale Earnhearts of the world. It does need the Bobby Hulls.

	16-02-2005 10:18									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Who IS talking about Tampa and the Canes? You aren't seeing the picture. There are polls showing that 40% of Canadians don't give a damn that the NHL isn't currently around. That number will just grow the longer it gets. People say the hard core fans will come back, but the longer a labor situation goes, and ESPECIALLY if a championship is called off, more and more hard core fans will say both sides stick and tell them to sod off. We've seen it south of the border already. And its a long process to get it back.

The polls are full of shite, and I'll tell you why.

It is easy for many of us to not miss it when it is not going on. Still, our news is dominated by it, and attention to juniour and AHL is way up. How much are we not missing it again?

However, the 'not missing it' is not in the middle of a season. Sure, many may be slow to renew seasons tickets when they think to themselves 'hey, I didn't miss it last year.' I would expect nothing less given how people think. However, by 10 games in they will realise what is different from the year before. Their team will be on the ice, and they will want to go watch it, so most will return.

	16-02-2005 10:23									#46
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quote: Oh, and people will go back to the game from Vancouver to New York and Philidelphia, when the frackus is over. If a few fans who would rather watch a tractor pull were lost, **** 'em and their franchises. Hockey does not need the Dale Earnhearts of the world. It does need the Bobby Hulls.

You overestimate things. Keith Primeau definitely has the right mindset with this:

quote: Primeau ''I'm extremely concerned,'' said Flyers captain Keith Primeau. ''The biggest thing that disturbs me is everyone's true misunderstanding of the fan base. You hear how certain people believe that the hardcore fan will definitely return, that the damage isn't irreparable. ''I think that's a huge miscalculation or judgment in error of who and what your fan base is. That, I think, is going to alarm a lot of people when the doors are re-opened.''

You are closing your eyes and putting your head in the sand if you think all will be well with fans in the northern cities. Both sides have pissed off the fan base, and it is not a given that the hard core fans come back. It took them over 10 years in baseball, and even then it may be younger, newer fans, rather than the old timers.

I'd actually say that the attendance in some 'tractor pull' areas (like Dallas and Los Angeles - both which drew more than Edmonton and Calgary in the last THREE years, in numbers as well as % full of home arena [% at least for Calgary... can't find Edmonton numbers]!) may see the fans come back in higher numbers than some northern cities.

	16-02-2005 10:38									#47
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And you don't have a clue what hockey means up here. Take your baseball, basketball and hand mellon, combine them and add a factor of 2. That is what hockey means up here. There will be butts in the seats. Maybe not as many for game one, but by the end of any season the houses will be rocking. Count on it.

The point, Imran, is that without a decent CBA, NHL hockey is dead outside of 2 or 3 Canadian cities. Hense, I don't give a **** what happens in Tampa, or LA.

Oh, and as far as attendance is concerned, Oilers pulled 17,698 per game and Flames pulled 16,600. That is out of populations of about a million each.

How many people live in LA or Philly?

Give me a break!

	16-02-2005 10:40									#48
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I want hockey back in Winnipeg and Quebec City. Then we can worry about sunshine states. But it will have to be by rules where the heart of hockey can keep beating.

	16-02-2005 10:40									#49
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NYE is right Imran. The Leafs form a pantheon in Toronto.

	16-02-2005 10:46									#50
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quote: And you don't have a clue what hockey means up here. Take your baseball, basketball and hand mellon, combine them and add a factor of 2. That is what hockey means up here. There will be butts in the seats. Maybe not as many for game one, but by the end of any season the houses will be rocking. Count on it.

So Primeau doesn't have a clue about what hockey means up there either?

Please. You are exactly who Primeau is talking about. If the season is totally gone, then his prediction will come true. If they can save it, then it'll be alright.

quote: How many people live in LA or Philly?

LA and Dallas each had over 98% capacity filled of their stadium. Dallas had 99%, which was dissapointing, since they were at 100% for the past 3 years. I thought you were arguing that people don't care about hockey at all down in the 'tractor pull' cities.

quote: The point, Imran, is that without a decent CBA, NHL hockey is dead outside of 2 or 3 Canadian cities.

You make the mistake of thinking that WITH a decent CBA, NHL hockey won't be dead outside of 2 or 3 Canadian cities. The Nordiques were NOT losing money. They just knew they could get more in Denver. That temptation will still be around with a salary cap.

	16-02-2005 11:01									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: And you don't have a clue what hockey means up here. Take your baseball, basketball and hand mellon, combine them and add a factor of 2. That is what hockey means up here. There will be butts in the seats. Maybe not as many for game one, but by the end of any season the houses will be rocking. Count on it. So Primeau doesn't have a clue about what hockey means up there either? Please. You are exactly who Primeau is talking about. If the season is totally gone, then his prediction will come true. If they can save it, then it'll be alright.

The point is it is fine if the whole season washes. Sorry, but I still live up here and I have also lived longer than Primeau, so maybe I might have a jump on the youngster in the debate.

quote: quote: How many people live in LA or Philly? LA and Dallas each had over 98% capacity filled of their stadium. Dallas had 99%, which was dissapointing, since they were at 100% for the past 3 years. I thought you were arguing that people don't care about hockey at all down in the 'tractor pull' cities.

No, I was saying it doesn't matter what happens to attendance in tractor pull cities after the lockout.

If they love hockey, they will come back. If they don't, they don't deserve a franchise. That goes for Edmonton and Calgary too. If we don't go back, then we can't expect some chump with deep pockets to hold the door open while we have a snit fit

quote: quote: The point, Imran, is that without a decent CBA, NHL hockey is dead outside of 2 or 3 Canadian cities. You make the mistake of thinking that WITH a decent CBA, NHL hockey won't be dead outside of 2 or 3 Canadian cities. The Nordiques were NOT losing money. They just knew they could get more in Denver. That temptation will still be around with a salary cap.

Go for it! Expand to where Yanks will pay to see the fights, er.. hockey! Just leave the lay of the land open to Quebec City and Winnipeg being viable.

At the moment we are talking about not rolling up the league in Edmonton and Clgary. Ottawa would be next.

You think a season missed is going to sink the Bruins, the Rngers, the Flyers, Hawks, Red Wings, or Islanders?

I doubt it and I doubt any chicken littles who say it is so.

You have to remember, hockey is exciting. It should not be compared with basebal.

	16-02-2005 11:06									#52
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quote: You have to remember, hockey is exciting. It should not be compared with basebal.

Yeah, hockey can't hold baseball's jock strap .

quote: Just leave the lay of the land open to Quebec City and Winnipeg being viable. At the moment we are talking about not rolling up the league in Edmonton and Clgary. Ottawa would be next.

Then instead of JUST harping on a salary cap, why don't you talk revenue sharing as well?

	16-02-2005 11:10									#53
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Revenue sharing can be discussed among owners. The CBA has to be settled over the point of the gun with the players.

That's where we are.

	16-02-2005 11:15									#54
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IIRC, the players were talking about revenue sharing, and also it is something that may be of interest with the union, because it could impact player salaries, especially at the top teams (who'd have less money).

A salary cap without revenue sharing is almost next to useless for teams like Edmonton, Calgary, Ottawa, Buffalo, etc.

	16-02-2005 11:17									#55
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Too bad there already is some revenue sharing without the union having **** all to say about it.

See what I mean? The players do not run the league. The sooner they realise that, the sooner they can put the skates on and play.

	16-02-2005 11:19									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui A salary cap without revenue sharing is almost next to useless for teams like Edmonton, Calgary, Ottawa, Buffalo, etc.

Glad you're more expert at the situation than the owners of the Oilers. They only have to write the cheques after all.

	16-02-2005 11:22									#57
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I'd bet the owners of the Oilers would welcome some real revenue sharing. What's a salary cap really going to do for them? The current salary cap proposals will only affect a handful of teams. The Oilers are apparently losing money hand over fist, where is the money to save the team going to come from with a cap?

Btw, good suggestion, let the owners and only the owners decide what is the for the best of the game (they are the 'experts' after all), because they've been doing such a bang up job... wait, weren't they the ones who kept voting for expansion?

	16-02-2005 11:26									#58
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They have welcomed it, Imran. they have received cash from the league for the last several seasons. Really, you have to pay more attention.

The cap is so that the constant upwards pressure is removed. If the top 8 teams had to cut their salaries, they wouldn't be coming offering stupid contracts to anyone who came within a sniff of free agency.

	16-02-2005 11:27									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Btw, good suggestion, let the owners and only the owners decide what is the for the best of the game (they are the 'experts' after all), because they've been doing such a bang up job... wait, weren't they the ones who kept voting for expansion?

They are also the ones who only recently gathered the balls to fight for a good CBA.

Your point?

	16-02-2005 11:33									#60
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quote: They have welcomed it, Imran. they have received cash from the league for the last several seasons. Really, you have to pay more attention.

It's a pittance... that isn't really revenue sharing, just as baseball 'luxury tax' isn't really revenue sharing. And NFL style revenue sharing is needed to secure the health of those teams. Slowing the upwards pressure on salaries will do jack for a team if it is losing incredible gobs of money while being a low payroll team.

quote: They are also the ones who only recently gathered the balls to fight for a good CBA. Your point?

Just because the owners pay the checks doesn't mean they make the best decisions or are 'experts' in deciding what is best for the sport. The owners are just as guilty (perhaps more!) for the mess the game is in than the players.