16-02-2005 11:36									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: They are also the ones who only recently gathered the balls to fight for a good CBA. Your point? Just because the owners pay the checks doesn't mean they make the best decisions or are 'experts' in deciding what is best for the sport. The owners are just as guilty (perhaps more!) for the mess the game is in than the players.

No, but the fact that it is their money and they take the risks makes it their call on how it is managed, yes?

	16-02-2005 11:39									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: They have welcomed it, Imran. they have received cash from the league for the last several seasons. Really, you have to pay more attention. It's a pittance... that isn't really revenue sharing, just as baseball 'luxury tax' isn't really revenue sharing. And NFL style revenue sharing is needed to secure the health of those teams. Slowing the upwards pressure on salaries will do jack for a team if it is losing incredible gobs of money while being a low payroll team.

The point, Imran, is that if you have a payroll of 30 million, it is better that the top teams be limited to 40 million so that they cannot go to 60 and constantly come along cherry picking all the best players that your franchise has developed.

Understand?

	16-02-2005 11:40									#63
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quote: No, but the fact that it is their money and they take the risks makes it their call on how it is managed, yes?

So what? You said since they write the checks they are experts and thus they know what they are doing. Frankly, seeing what they've done with expansion and revenue sharing, it doesn't seem they know what they are doing at all. I wonder why the NFL is only sports league that has sane owners?

	16-02-2005 11:42									#64
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The Oilers owners are sane. They have said that the Oilers need a rational CBA for hockey to stay here. They are unwilling to continue writing cheques to fund the team.

That is sane, in my book.

Last edited by notyoueither on 16-02-2005 at 11:51

	16-02-2005 11:42									#65
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither The point, Imran, is that if you have a payroll of 30 million, it is better that the top teams be limited to 40 million so that they cannot go to 60 and constantly come along cherry picking all the best players that your franchise has developed. Understand?

But if you are already losing gobs of money, those players will be lost anyway! The big teams will find a way to shift money around and get those players through trades. Or the struggling teams will just have to let them go on Free Agency. If you are losing a ton of money currently, moving the top salary ceiling down won't alleiviate you of that! You need more!

	16-02-2005 11:44									#66
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither The Oilers owners are sane. They have said that the Oilers need a rational CBA for hockey to stay here. They are unwilling to continue writing cheques to fund the team. That is same, in my book.

Have they also pushed for a comprehensive revenue sharing plan (ie, 50% goes to the team, 50% in a pot equally distributed to all teams in the league or something like that)? If not, then they'll find that the salary cap isn't going to be a panacea to all their problems as they think it will.

	16-02-2005 11:47									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui But if you are already losing gobs of money, those players will be lost anyway! The big teams will find a way to shift money around and get those players through trades. Or the struggling teams will just have to let them go on Free Agency. If you are losing a ton of money currently, moving the top salary ceiling down won't alleiviate you of that! You need more!

Go ahead and bang, Imran. If you can't tell the difference between the competition from 8 40 million dollar teams and 8 50 or 60 million dollar ones, you really have hit your head a bit too much.

Of course the Oilers hope that a reasonable team can be put on the ice for less money. Duh!

	16-02-2005 11:47									#68
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HOCKEY RULES!

Shush.

	16-02-2005 11:49									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Have they also pushed for a comprehensive revenue sharing plan (ie, 50% goes to the team, 50% in a pot equally distributed to all teams in the league or something like that)? If not, then they'll find that the salary cap isn't going to be a panacea to all their problems as they think it will.

No ****, Sherlock. It will still take careful management to be able to bring championships home.

However, what has been happening is the NHL has been progressively pricing itself out of most Canadian (and some American) markets.

What is sought is a CBA that can see competitive teams in all of the current NHL cities. Throw in Winnipeg and it would be a rousing success.

	16-02-2005 11:55									#70
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Go ahead and bang, Imran. If you can't tell the difference between the competition from 8 40 million dollar teams and 8 50 or 60 million dollar ones, you really have hit your head a bit too much. Of course the Oilers hope that a reasonable team can be put on the ice for less money. Duh!

When you are losing tons of money, it doesn't matter. The average salary will not go down that much. Perhaps they have a better chance at the postseason, though they have been fairly competitive the last few years (in that 8, 9 spot). That hasn't helped with their cash flow problems though. The salary cap will not magically make everything better. The players at the top end will have their salaries reduced, but the middle tier guys will make the same, and if other sports are any guide, get cut when they make too much (to the benefit of the young player).

	16-02-2005 11:57									#71
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quote: However, what has been happening is the NHL has been progressively pricing itself out of most Canadian (and some American) markets.

Was Quebec, Winnipeg, Hartford, Minnesota (the North Stars, of course) etc really losing that much money, or did they find regions where they thought they could make more? So was it really pricing itself out or rather leaving for greener pastures?

	16-02-2005 11:58									#72
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Imran, I think that the Nordiques weren't exactly losing money, but they knew they couldn't go on with the new contracts that their young and talented players would ask, and they had no money to build a new stadium (the Colisée had only room for 14,000),

	16-02-2005 11:59									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui When you are losing tons of money, it doesn't matter. The average salary will not go down that much. Perhaps they have a better chance at the postseason, though they have been fairly competitive the last few years (in that 8, 9 spot). That hasn't helped with their cash flow problems though. The salary cap will not magically make everything better. The players at the top end will have their salaries reduced, but the middle tier guys will make the same, and if other sports are any guide, get cut when they make too much (to the benefit of the young player).

That's the point, Imran. Keeping the Gerome Iginla's and Mark Messier's here, let alone seeing the Jeff Beukebooms go elsewhere because even they can command a stupid level of salary.

	16-02-2005 12:03									#74
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quote: That's the point, Imran. Keeping the Gerome Iginla's and Mark Messier's here, let alone seeing the Jeff Beukebooms go elsewhere because even they can command a stupid level of salary.

Like I said, Mess leaves anyway because the Oilers are losing money hand over fist and decide they can't keep him and pay him the (LESSER) salary he'd command. He'd still be gone without comprehensive revenue sharing.

	16-02-2005 12:05									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: However, what has been happening is the NHL has been progressively pricing itself out of most Canadian (and some American) markets. Was Quebec, Winnipeg, Hartford, Minnesota (the North Stars, of course) etc really losing that much money, or did they find regions where they thought they could make more? So was it really pricing itself out or rather leaving for greener pastures?

Most of these teams moved since they couldn't make a go of it where they were.

If they were just going for the lush fields, why would the league allow the moves and deprive themselves of the expantion money?

	16-02-2005 12:07									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: That's the point, Imran. Keeping the Gerome Iginla's and Mark Messier's here, let alone seeing the Jeff Beukebooms go elsewhere because even they can command a stupid level of salary. Like I said, Mess leaves anyway because the Oilers are losing money hand over fist and decide they can't keep him and pay him the (LESSER) salary he'd command. He'd still be gone without comprehensive revenue sharing.

No, like you pulled out of your ass to keep the argument going.

You have still not explained how the top 8 or 10 teams having to cut their payrolls will lead to a drain from the other teams.

	16-02-2005 12:09									#77
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I agree with you, NYE.

Except...

quote: The Oilers owners are sane.

... the fact that they hired Cory Cross speaks against this statement.

	16-02-2005 12:13									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I agree with you, NYE. Except... quote: The Oilers owners are sane. ... the fact that they hired Cory Cross speaks against this statement.

You have me on that one. My only defence for it would be that the GM did it, not the owners.

Of course the GM is Kevin Lowe, and he is supposed to know better.

Oh, and he's a good ol' boy from Lloyd. That must make it alright.

	16-02-2005 12:16									#79
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I saw Cory Cross in Loblaws once. He's an ugly streak of a man.

	16-02-2005 12:17									#80
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He's from Lloyd and he can play hockey, sort of. What do you want? Eric Cantonna?

	16-02-2005 12:23									#81
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Someone that doesn't look and play like Plastic Man from the Fantastic Four.

Or if that is necessary, someone who does, but is actually good.

	16-02-2005 12:47									#82
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But he's from Lloyd!

	16-02-2005 18:43									#83
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The TV money is gone. This used to be the one thing that was shared equally between the teams. Teams that cannot afford to pay out the entire cap will lose players. Perhaps not as many (or even their best player), but they will still lose players and not have as much depth as teams that can afford to pay the full salary cap. That lack of depth will show up during a full season and those teams will tend not to be as competitive and will tend to not win championships.

	16-02-2005 20:14									#84
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Quite right, pchang. We've seen it with basketball, where having a cap couldn't save the Vancouver Grizzlies and Charlotte Hornets, who both had to move because they were losing gobs of money.

I don't think the hockey people on this thread realize that a cap by itself isn't going to fix the issues that the teams losing money are facing.

	16-02-2005 21:49									#85
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This Hockey season is muerte. News at 1:00PM EST. According to the Sharks CEO, the average salary last year was about $1.8 million which amounts to an average salary per team of a bit less than $43million. Thus, the owner's proposal of a $42.5 million cap. Can anyone confirm these numbers?

	16-02-2005 21:55									#86
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This is an interesting read. Note the huge discrepancy in team payrolls.

http://www.hockeyzoneplus.com/$maseq_e.htm

edit: fixed url

Last edited by Kontiki on 16-02-2005 at 22:52

	16-02-2005 21:58									#87
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It still makes me incredibly happy to know that a team with a total payroll of $33M took down a team like Detroit, in 6 games, with a payrol of $77.8M.

	16-02-2005 22:06									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Asher It still makes me incredibly happy to know that a team with a total payroll of $33M took down a team like Detroit, in 6 games, with a payrol of $77.8M.

Actually, I think it's even better that the Rangers can have a payroll of $77 million and be league doormats.

	16-02-2005 22:54									#89
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BTW: Did anyone hear the radio clip from the Dallas Stars owner yesterday? He said that there would be hockey in Dallas next year, he just didn't know who would be playing for him.

	16-02-2005 23:10									#90
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Game Over: NHL cancels season