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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:24
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and gagne handles the pressure, if he didnt he wouldnt be the closer. |
There was no evidence he was from his starting role.
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as for pressure, is it meaningless? have you ever faced a guy throwing 95 mph? I mean, you must have experience to base that conclusion on. |
No, but plenty of those players have. Why do some of them hit better when it is late in games, when the pressure should be higher? It's an overrated factor, like the whole 'clutch' thing which has been shown not to exist. It's a nice little theory that the purists like to advance, but those designated 'clutch' players don't show high stats in postseason, close/late game situations. And a lot is based on small sample sizes, like Barry Bonds is a choaker in the postseason... then in 2002, he hits the crap out of the ball... if he's such a choaker, how does that happen?
You wouldn't be in the major leagues if you crumpled and started going weak when faced with a 95 mile per hour fastball or someone that could hit a ton. You wouldn't even be in the minors.
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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:24
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There was no evidence he was from his starting role. |
Is there evidence now? You seem to think citing exceptions to the rule disproves the rule... You even cited Rivera and he was eased into the job of closer by first seeing how he reacted to the pressure of setting up a closer. Lidge went thru the same process, virtually all closers served in other capacities to see if they could handle increasing pressure unless a manager simply lacked the luxury of waiting. Throwing a young unproven guy into the closer role is not the rule, its the exception.
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No, but plenty of those players have. Why do some of them hit better when it is late in games, when the pressure should be higher? It's an overrated factor, like the whole 'clutch' thing which has been shown not to exist. It's a nice little theory that the purists like to advance, but those designated 'clutch' players don't show high stats in postseason, close/late game situations. And a lot is based on small sample sizes, like Barry Bonds is a choaker in the postseason... then in 2002, he hits the crap out of the ball... if he's such a choaker, how does that happen? |
Steroids?  You're arguing that pressure is over rated (compared to whose notion?), not that it is meaningless. Remember, you said holds are meaningless, not over rated.
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You wouldn't be in the major leagues if you crumpled and started going weak when faced with a 95 mile per hour fastball or someone that could hit a ton. You wouldn't even be in the minors. |
But even veterans feel pressure when facing a tough pitcher in win-lose situations. Increase the stakes and you increase the pressure.
Is pressure meaningless? You didn't answer.
If it isn't, is there more pressure on a pitcher who is trying to hold a small lead late in the game than a pitcher who is finishing a game in a blow out?
If you say there is more pressure, then that pressure means there is more value in setting up closers than mopping up blow outs. Managers agree... They don't think holds are meaningless...
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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:24
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Remember, you said holds are meaningless, not over rated. |
Yeah, and I stand by that (as are saves). They are meaningless, even if pressure isn't. The pitcher who is trying to keep a small lead has to deal with better hitters, as the manager will try to pinch hit and run and do all sorts of stuff than the pitcher who is mopping up. The pressure doesn't change things. It doesn't make pitchers worse as 'conventional wisdom' says it does. The clutch player (ie, players who get better under 'pressure') has already been shown to be false, and I imagine so will the whole idea that there are players who wilt under pressure. Players who wilt under pressure don't get to play professional sports because most plays have pressure behind them. A little more pressure makes little difference. The examples used to show players falling to pressure fails to take into account the opposition most of the time (ie, it's the pitcher wilting instead of playing a great offensive team).
If pressure has any meaning, it is so small as to be close to meaningless. Apparently Bonds wilted to the pressure of the playoffs when he was in Pittsburgh. Though all talk of that stopped in 2002 with the Giants. I don't think it was because he learned to 'deal' with the pressure.
Another example... people use Byung-Yun Kim of the D-Backs to say pressure gets to pitchers. It couldn't have been that he was facing the Yankees, and their powerful lineup, could it? Add that to the fact that Yankees have always battered him, World Series or not.
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Managers agree... They don't think holds are meaningless... |
Of course they do, and you've proved it, if a manager has more than 1 pitcher with good K/BB and K/9 numbers, he'll use them mostly evenly. He isn't going to look at who has the most holds to decide who gets to pitch that day.
Last edited by Imran Siddiqui on 18-02-2005 at 19:25
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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:24
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Ok, we got ME, Ramsey, Berzerker, vlad anterkov, TEF, Stuie. Where are the rest of you?!
Yeah, that's right... I'm pointing at Guy, Apoc, LoA, Tubs, jdd, and asleep!
Send me your emails! I'll be sending out PMs by Friday, and you'll have by Monday to be fully signed up. Draft will start next week at some time (since the season starts in April, starting in the first week of March sounds good).
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17-02-2005 13:52
doesn't bode well, does it... I'll PM Guy, Apoc and LoA
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