 |
| |
|
|
Berzerker
|
 |
topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:24
|
|
Gentlemen, league sign ups begin this Thursday/Friday!
Only Imran's league will be in play as my league garnered only 6 people. So, shall we discuss changes? If we are going to have saves and holds as we did last year, I strongly suggest 3-2-2 (3 sp, 2 rp, 2 ut) for the pitching spots so we have enough leeway to compete for both saves and holds. Last year we hade 4 sp and 2 rp positions making it very difficult to compete for both categories. There isn't much point in having saves and holds with only 2 pitcher spots to devote to both categories. To go for the holds category with 1 pitcher you basically have to give up the saves category.
Imran
Berzerker
Emporer Fabulous
Apocalypse
Lawrence of Arabia
Tuberski
Vlad Antler
jdd
Stuie
Ramsey
Asleep
Guynemer
I suggest you post your preferences and dont assume the categories you like will be included. 
My prefs:
errors instead of fielding percent ( not crucial to me)
saves and holds with 3-2-2 pitching spots (this is important to me). It was unfortunate these categories basically became a wash last year with 1 person going for saves and the other going for holds or both going for just 1 category.
Either a minimum IP per week (which scares the hell out of me because all-star week abbreviates that weeks games, but 12-14 IP (hell, I played a daily league last year with a min of 30 IP) doesn't seem to be much of a problem. Just be careful during the all-star week and make sure your starters stand a good chance of pitching. OR give a clear advantage to increased starts with an additional category.
Let the fun begin, start looking up player stats folks, I suspect we will be making picks this weekend or when Imran gives us the go ahead.
Oh yeah, we'll need to make a pick order too. If we knew the order from last year I'd suggest we just reverse it.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Imran Siddiqui
|
 |
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:24
|
|
Woot! I guess the changes for Fantasy Baseball, with the same to MLB Media Associates, begin next year (if at all)?
Btw... we have weekly in my league... just thought you should know.
I'm usually not a fan of 'swing' positions. This means 'Utility' and 'Pitcher'. I like set classifications. In fact, if I think you wouldn't lynch me, I'd rather have a LF, CF, and RF than 3 OF or 2 OF and a CF .
I wasn't a fan of putting holds in and I don't want it against this year.
I REALLY think it is a bad idea to put errors instead of fielding percentage in. Again, those who don't play in the field get a HUGE boost with errors, because they will never make an error. However, with FD%, they will be at 0.000. I'd rather have that. I don't like perverse incentives.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Imran Siddiqui
|
|
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:24
|
|
Triples?! Why? That's even more nebulous than holds!
And what's the point of including hits, doubles, triples, HRs, and THEN Total Bases... you are just counting them exactly twice then (at least have some variation between stats)! If you took out triples and had TB, then I can see it better.
And I'll take ERA over earned runs. Even with IP, starters are penalized compared to relievers (relievers have Saves and/or Holds as well).
Anyway, my preferences:
Lineup:
C, 1B, 2B, 3B, SS, LF, RF, CF, 5 bench
Rotation:
SP, SP, SP, SP, RP, RP, P (my concession )
Stats (hitting):
BA, OBP, SLG, Hits, HR, BB, SB, FDPT
Stats (pitching):
ERA, K, BB, Saves, Hits Allowed, Wins, Losses
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Berzerker
|
|
topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:24
|
|
quote:
I wasn't a fan of putting holds in and I don't want it against this year. |
I suppose we can just compete for saves, its just I think we need a stat to cover what has become a very important part of the game - 6-8th innings. Frankly saves are over rated given how many games are won or lost before getting to the 9th.
quote:
I REALLY think it is a bad idea to put errors instead of fielding percentage in. Again, those who don't play in the field get a HUGE boost with errors, because they will never make an error. |
True, I had a brainfart.
Catcher
1st base
2nd base
3rd base
Shortstop
3 Outfield (I wouldn't mind LF, CF. RF if we were allowed deeper rosters).
DH or Utility
total of 9 batting spots
3 or 4 SP
2 RP
1 or 2 Ut
total of 7 pitching spots
Let me see if I can remember categories:
categories with a ? are...well...of questionable value or duplicated elsewhere
AB (?)
hits
runs
doubles (?)
Triples (?) (Can you say, Carl Crawford?)
Extra base hits may not be an option but Yahoo should offer it
homers
RBIs
Fielding % (?)
Stolen bases
Total Bases
Strikeouts
Walks
On base % (?)
Slugging % (?)
OPS (on base and slugging) (?)
Below are pitching categories with the reliever strategy breakdown compared to the normal 4 starters
Innings pitched (?) - advantage SP
Wins - adv SP
Losses - adv RP
Saves - adv RP
Holds - adv RP
Strikeouts - adv SP
Walks - adv RP
Total Bases - adv RP
Earned run average - adv RP (this does favor relievers)
If we drop holds and IPs the reliever strategy is still evident. And there are usually 1-2 closers who have SP status so if we went with a 4 SP-2RP like last year, the guy who can get the closer with SP status has a nice advantage (Danny Graves is a good example, but he should have lost his SP status so we might not see any closers in that situation until the season is well under way). But its still an advantage I'd like to see prevented or eliminated.
My prefs for scoring:
hits
runs
homers
RBIs
Stolen bases
Total bases
walks
strikeouts
OPS
optional:
doubles
triples
fielding %
OBS & slugging instead of OPS
Wins
Losses
saves
holds
strikeouts
walks
Total bases
ERA
Optional: To avoid the reliever strategy
IP
Starts
drop holds and/or total bases
I'm just glad to see yahoo up and running, I was afraid we were getting screwed. Yahoo says free and pay leagues would be going soon.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Imran Siddiqui
|
|
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:24
|
|
quote:
How can you say holds are over rated? |
It's the new 'buzz' stat that more and more fantasy leagues are using. I hate it.
quote:
thats because some of you guys dont want a bunch of categories. I'd use just about every category Yahoo has |
Frankly, I wouldn't mind just going Runs, TB, OBP, SLG, SB, Fielding %, ERA, BB, K, Wins, Saves
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Stuie
|
 |
Have a beer!
Sep 2001
time: 00:24
|
|
Holds are silly.
My preferences (remember, I'm an OPS fan... I'll fight for that).
Stats (hitting):
BA, OPS, Hits, HR, Runs, BB, SB, FDPT
Stats (pitching):
ERA, K, BB, Saves, Hits Allowed, Wins, Losses, IP
Positions:
C, 1B, 2B, SS, 3B, OF, OF, CF, UT
SP, SP, SP, SP, RP, RP, P
Edit: Forgot - plus four bench spots, 2 DL spots.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
gjramsey
|
 |
Wooo! Pig! Sooie!
Nov 2001
time: 23:24
|
|
Hmm...need to do some thinking on this. My thoughts:
Positions
C, 1B, 2B, 3B, SS, LF, RF, CF, Ut, 4 bench
Rotation:
SP, SP, SP, RP, RP, P, P
2 spots for the DL.
Stats I will stew on for a while.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Vlad Antlerkov
|
 |
Do you have Matt Stairs in your house?
Mar 1999
time: 23:24
|
|
For positions, I'm voting for C-1B-2B-3B-SS-CF-OF-OF-UT and SP-SP-SP-SP-RP-P-P, 4 bench, 2 DL.
Stats... My opinion of saves and holds is that they're equally silly, but generally aren't perceived as such because saves are established and holds are not. (Nitpick-- STATS, Inc. came up with Holds sometime in the 80s, and has been keeping them unofficially for some time. To the best of my knowledge, MLB started picking up on them just last year.) If there's some way to combine the two into one category, I'd just go with that, but since Yahoo is a piece of crap, there isn't.  None of the other solutions (keeping one and dropping the other, keeping both as distinct categories, or dropping both) really strike me as favorable, but if I had to pick one, I'd just go with keeping Saves and dropping Holds. (If we did include both, I'd swap out one of the SPs or Ps for another RP.)
That said, batting:
Batting Average (only for tradition, can be dropped)
On-Base Percentage
Slugging Percentage
Hits
Home Runs
Total Bases
Stolen Bases
Runs Scored
RBI
Walks
Doubles (not a strong preference, can be dropped)
None of the fielding stats Yahoo offers (putouts, assists, errors, fielding percentage) are all that meaningful. If they had Zone Rating, I'd include it.
Pitching:
Wins
Losses
Saves (can be dropped)
IP
ERA
Strikeouts
WHIP
K/9
K/BB
Does it put a lot of emphasis on the strikeout? Sure. But I don't really mind that.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Imran Siddiqui
|
|
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:24
|
|
quote:
I can watch how they manage and the fact they consistently rely on 1 or 2 guys when they have a small lead tells me they don't think its meaningless. |
 You think they go, well, Billy has 40 holds and Johnny only has 20, so we should go with Billy in this situation! You. Can't. Be. Serious.
quote:
If holds were meaningless they'd throw any arm in there to set up the closer. |
Um.. what? Saves are meaningless, but they still have a closer (well... there is an argument if the closer should always be a 9th inning guy, but that's sometehing else). These stats don't tell you much of anything really. For example, I'd take Joe Nathan over Francisco Cordero, but if you looked at saves, you'd say Cordero is more important.
quote:
I'll bet I have ALL managers on my side and I don't need to make that up, all teams value closers and the set up guy. |
WHAT DOES VALUING SET UP GUYS AND CLOSERS HAVE TO DO WITH THE VALUE OF HOLDS AND SAVES? They don't particularly show you who are the best relievers. The stats that do that are ERA, K/BB, K/9, WHIP.
Managers like speedy players, but I don't see them pouring over the 'triples' numbers to see who to play!
Chris Reitsma last year had 31 holds with a 4.07 ERA. Give me Julian Tarvarez who pitched similar number of innings and had 19 holds with a 2.38 ERA, or Juan Rincon who tied for his teams lead in holds with 16, but had a 2.63 ERA.
quote:
haven't you claimed holds are the "new buzz"? |
Yeah, some moron decided to make it an official state since 1999. We should have been devaluing the save rather than introducing another useless stat.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Berzerker
|
|
topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:24
|
|
quote:
You think they go, well, Billy has 40 holds and Johnny only has 20, so we should go with Billy in this situation! You. Can't. Be. Serious. |
If I had 2 guys with those numbers I'd go with the guy with more holds (he's more used to the pressure) or the guy who matched up better against the hitters. But I sure wouldn't go with a guy I use to mop up in blow outs because holding a lead is "meaningless". Would you?
quote:
Um.. what? Saves are meaningless, but they still have a closer (well... there is an argument if the closer should always be a 9th inning guy, but that's sometehing else). These stats don't tell you much of anything really. For example, I'd take Joe Nathan over Francisco Cordero, but if you looked at saves, you'd say Cordero is more important. |
Guys with lots of holds typically have good stats elsewhere (thats why they're set up guys), but claiming most managers think holds are meaningless is You didn't respond to my point, if holds are meaningless why dont managers just throw any reliever into the set up role? Because they want guys who keep leads intact instead of giving leads up. Closers wouldn't get much work if the set up guys sucked. Last year Cleveland was facing a problem - their set up guys kept blowing leads thereby making their best reliever serving as closer less effective and unused in many games.
quote:
WHAT DOES VALUING SET UP GUYS AND CLOSERS HAVE TO DO WITH THE VALUE OF HOLDS AND SAVES? |
Holds and saves have value because they translate into wins. We value set up guys and closers when they have holds and saves, both stats reflect value.
quote:
They don't particularly show you who are the best relievers. The stats that do that are ERA, K/BB, K/9, WHIP. |
The best relievers close games and set up closers. K/BB and K/9 are nice wrt stats but I'd rather have the guy with 40 holds than the guy with nice Ks who blows leads.
quote:
Managers like speedy players, but I don't see them pouring over the 'triples' numbers to see who to play! |
You're mixing apples and oranges, triples are not holds. Since when do you see what managers are doing anyway, you think most of them don't even value holds.
quote:
Chris Reitsma last year had 31 holds with a 4.07 ERA. Give me Julian Tarvarez who pitched similar number of innings and had 19 holds with a 2.38 ERA, or Juan Rincon who tied for his teams lead in holds with 16, but had a 2.63 ERA. |
The Reds had poorer setup men across the board and that hurt them. Rincon shared set up duties with another guy (Romero) who had good numbers allowing the manager to go with the guy who was hot at the time. I'll bet Tavares also shared that duty with another guy...
quote:
Yeah, some moron decided to make it an official state since 1999. We should have been devaluing the save rather than introducing another useless stat. |
That "moron" merely "invented" a stat managers already recognised. Contrary to your claim that most managers think holds are meaningless, we knew how important it was to have a reliever come in and hold a lead back in high school and college.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Imran Siddiqui
|
|
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:24
|
|
quote:
but claiming most managers think holds are meaningless is |
'' meaning true? Managers don't look at who had more holds to see who to put in. They look to see who has better numbers for that situation.
quote:
You didn't respond to my point, if holds are meaningless why dont managers just throw any reliever into the set up role? |
Because you are confusing issues! Holds do not equal the best reliever for the job, just as saves do not. For example, we can look at the 1995 Yankees, where John Wetteland was saving games because he was the 'closer' even though the more valuable reliever was Rivera. Just because you have more saves or holds doesn't make you better. Rivera had better ERA, K/BB, K/9, but since he didn't have the 'saves', was Wetteland better? Of course not.
Another example from last year was Octavio Dotel started as the closer for Houston last year, with Brad Lidge as set up. 'Cause Dotel had more saves was he better? No... Lidge had better K/BB, K/9, and ERA numbers. That is what determines the value of a picture, NOT saves or holds or wins or losses.
quote:
The Reds had poorer setup men across the board and that hurt them. |
Um... Reitsma played for the Braves last year... all of last year. And according to your theory, wouldn't a reliever who was in the top 5 in holds be a 'great reliever'? After all, you are making the case that holds count for something.
Btw, both Alfonseca and Grybowski on the Braves had significantly less holds, but better ERAs. Give me them over Reitsma.
quote:
we knew how important it was to have a reliever come in and hold a lead back in high school and college. |
And once again, does that mean the reliever with the most holds is the best non-closer in the bullpen? Does that mean the reliever with the most saves is the best reliever in the bullpen?
Nope, of course not.
And, of course, www.baseballreference.com, ie, baseball's free stat mecca has no references to Holds, while it does look at league ERA and ERA+ numbers, as well as HBP and WP numbers, and salaries among many other stats.
Last edited by Imran Siddiqui on 17-02-2005 at 10:47
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Berzerker
|
|
topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:24
|
|
at your assertion makes you think its true?
quote:
Managers don't look at who had more holds to see who to put in. They look to see who has better numbers for that situation. |
Holds are one of the numbers they look at.
quote:
Because you are confusing issues! Holds do not equal the best reliever for the job, just as saves do not.[quote]
Holds and saves are 2 ways managers determine who will pitch. Some teams lack decent options or have several decent options and you're citing these cases as evidence holds and saves are meaningless. The ONLY stats that typically matter are ERA and the ratio of holds/saves to blown leads. You can throw a mop up reliever with a good ERA into the set up role and he can do worse than the guy with the higher ERA and more holds because pressure is a factor. You cited Atlanta and ignored that you were comparing a southpaw(s) with a RH. Lefties tend to be used more selectively, i.e., against lefties. That could account for the difference in ERA.
[quote]For example, we can look at the 1995 Yankees, where John Wetteland was saving games because he was the 'closer' even though the more valuable reliever was Rivera. Just because you have more saves or holds doesn't make you better. Rivera had better ERA, K/BB, K/9, but since he didn't have the 'saves', was Wetteland better? Of course not. |
Was Rivera setting him up or mopping up in blow outs? Was Rivera a rookie or inexperienced? According to your argument it wouldn't matter because holds are meaningless. How did K-Rod prove himself amenable to the closer role before Percival was injured? By holding leads... What would have happened if K-Rod got into the set up role and started blowing leads? Depending on their options, he may not have become the closer.
quote:
Another example from last year was Octavio Dotel started as the closer for Houston last year, with Brad Lidge as set up. 'Cause Dotel had more saves was he better? No... Lidge had better K/BB, K/9, and ERA numbers. That is what determines the value of a picture, NOT saves or holds or wins or losses. |
How are you helping your argument? I never said all closers are better than all set up guys, only that holds and saves reflect value. You said holds are meaningless and you're citing guys with lots of holds who ended up supplanting closers as your proof. There were other factors in Houston's decision to trade Dotel, all things being equal they would have loved to keep him as either the closer or set up guy.
Would you say Lidge's performance as set up guy or closer was based on his ability to hold leads or save games? Of course, why? Because holding leads is what managers want in a set up guy. Thats their job after all. Of course managers look at other numbers to get an idea about a guy's potential at holding leads, but if they get the job and can't hold enough leads, the manager will look for a guy who can hold leads even if the first guy had better numbers.
quote:
Um... Reitsma played for the Braves last year... all of last year. And according to your theory, wouldn't a reliever who was in the top 5 in holds be a 'great reliever'? After all, you are making the case that holds count for something. |
Holds do count for something, they hand leads to closers and not everyone is suited to the role of set up man.
quote:
Btw, both Alfonseca and Grybowski on the Braves had significantly less holds, but better ERAs. Give me them over Reitsma. |
Citing a guy with a better ERA than the set up guy doesn't prove holds dont reflect value.
quote:
And once again, does that mean the reliever with the most holds is the best non-closer in the bullpen? |
It depends, managers do make mistakes when looking for set up men. But they do want to find a guy who can consistently hand leads over to closers and that is a special talent. The ability to handle pressure is a big factor...
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Berzerker
|
|
topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:24
|
|
quote:
And, of course, www.baseballreference.com, ie, baseball's free stat mecca has no references to Holds, while it does look at league ERA and ERA+ numbers, as well as HBP and WP numbers, and salaries among many other stats. |
And managers rely exclusively on this site? Nope, managers understand the value of a guy who can hold leads.
Basicly your argument is that holds and saves are a (meaningless) consequence of a guy with good numbers in other situations. Thats how managers view potential, but not how they view success. If I had to choose between a guy with a 4.0 ERA and mediocre strikeout totals who was 30 for 32 in saves or holds and a guy with a 3.0 ERA and nice Ks but 5 blown holds or saves, the answer would become obvious.
The guys with good numbers elsewhere may get a shot at setting up or closing, but thats no gaurantee those previous numbers will translate into success in their new role. Why? Pressure... There's a big difference between a guy with better numbers mopping up games and a guy who successfully sets up or closes games. There's a difference between a southpaw who is used mainly to get lefties out and a guy who can handle the pressure of repeatedly holding leads. Thats why teams try to find a regular closer and set up man. To argue that holds are meaningless is to argue pressure (success) is meaningless...
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Imran Siddiqui
|
|
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:24
|
|
quote:
The ONLY stats that typically matter are ERA and the ratio of holds/saves to blown leads. You can throw a mop up reliever with a good ERA into the set up role and he can do worse than the guy with the higher ERA and more holds because pressure is a factor. You cited Atlanta and ignored that you were comparing a southpaw(s) with a RH. Lefties tend to be used more selectively, i.e., against lefties. That could account for the difference in ERA. |
"Pressure" is an overrated factor. How many times has a team plugged in a closer and its worked fine (think Todd Jones with the Tigers for instance). Some pitchers can't do well pitching against both right and left handers, perhaps, but people use the choak word too much. Apparently Armando Benitez is a choaker, even though he has great regular season numbers because he doesn't do that well in the playoffs. It could be because of better hitting talent against him, but nah, that's too simple. He's gotta be a choaker. Mariano Rivera is so clutch, so clutch. What happened with Arizona in 2001? What about Boston this year? If pressure is the big thing with a closer and he did save the most games, why is he choaking? Not handling the pressure? Come on.
And as for Atlanta... that's bunk. Reitsma AND Grybowski AND Alfonseca were all right handed relievers who pitched similar innings (Grybowski somewhat less). Alfonseca was much better in ERA, but trailed badly in Holds, same with Grybowski.
quote:
Was Rivera setting him up or mopping up in blow outs? Was Rivera a rookie or inexperienced? According to your argument it wouldn't matter because holds are meaningless. |
Setting up, and while young, obviously had better stuff than Wetteland.
quote:
There were other factors in Houston's decision to trade Dotel, all things being equal they would have loved to keep him as either the closer or set up guy. |
They would have kept Dotel as closer, no matter how good Lidge got, as long as Dotel was on the ballclub. Lidge was ready for prime time. And it wasn't because he was getting 'holds'. It was because he was striking people out at amazing rates and not walking people that much.
quote:
Holds do count for something, they hand leads to closers and not everyone is suited to the role of set up man. |
How many holds did John Smoltz and Eric Gagne have before they became closers? Jason Isringhausen has 1 hold in his entire career. If they had to show they could handle late game pressure (except for Smoltz who knew), should they have been set up men according to your theory?
People that have high holds numbers don't necessarily lead to future closers... the ones that do are ones who should have been closers but some idiot manager is sticking with the veteran.
Saves as well are overrated stats... especially the guy who comes in for a 1-2-3 ninth innning and everyone is saying how great he is.
They may not be as meaningless for how good a pitcher is as wins and losses (tell Randy Johnson that wins gives you the true measure of a pitcher), but they are pretty devoid of use. Unfortunetly, wins, losses, and saves are pretty integrated into fantasy baseball. Though one day I'd love to run a league with those things taken out.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Berzerker
|
|
topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:24
|
|
Pressure is over rated now? Have you ever played baseball at the high school or college level? I have, I was a starting pitcher. Pressure is not over rated, its under rated by people who don't know whats its like to face good hitters with runners in scoring position.
quote:
Setting up, and while young, obviously had better stuff than Wetteland. |
I thought so. They eased him into the role by gradually increasing the pressure cooker. If he had cracked he wouldn't have replaced Wettleland.
quote:
They would have kept Dotel as closer, no matter how good Lidge got, as long as Dotel was on the ballclub. Lidge was ready for prime time. And it wasn't because he was getting 'holds'. It was because he was striking people out at amazing rates and not walking people that much |
No Imran, it was because he was getting holds. Why? He could handle the pressure. Raw talent doesn't mean much for a set up man or closer if he cracks under pressure.
quote:
How many holds did John Smoltz and Eric Gagne have before they became closers? Jason Isringhausen has 1 hold in his entire career. If they had to show they could handle late game pressure (except for Smoltz who knew), should they have been set up men according to your theory? |
Not every team has the luxury of easing young talent into the closer role by letting them set up games first, but I suspect Gagne was already an ace reliever in college. And Smoltz had already proven himself so it wasn't much of a gamble to have him close games...
quote:
People that have high holds numbers don't necessarily lead to future closers... the ones that do are ones who should have been closers but some idiot manager is sticking with the veteran. |
The pressure is different for each role. Some guys handle the pressure at both, some dont have the same success, some cant handle it at all and fail inspite of their talent.
quote:
Saves as well are overrated stats... especially the guy who comes in for a 1-2-3 ninth innning and everyone is saying how great he is. |
I agree, but you said these stats were meaningless. There's a difference between being over rated and meaningless.
quote:
They may not be as meaningless for how good a pitcher is as wins and losses (tell Randy Johnson that wins gives you the true measure of a pitcher), but they are pretty devoid of use. Unfortunetly, wins, losses, and saves are pretty integrated into fantasy baseball. Though one day I'd love to run a league with those things taken out. |
SPs aren't the only people who may be to blame for not winning, but not winning isn't a viable substitute for winning regardless of who is to blame. Big Unit on an average team will win more than he loses. You keep citing exceptions to the rule and ignoring the rule.
quote:
Yeah, it is obvious... you pick the later. The guy with the better Ks will eventually be the better star reliever. |
So you value speculation over reality. This debate is pointless, we disagree and nothing will change that. There's not much I can tell someone who thinks managers ignore holds and who thinks pressure is "over rated"... But I'll tell you what, I got to bat against Mike Norris (Cy Young winner) when I was 18 and the pressure was not over rated. There are few pitchers who can stare down an Albert Pujols in a win or lose situation and not feel the pressure.
|
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:24.
Apolyton Time is 00:24. |
top of page
|
|
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
16-02-2005 10:17
. They indicate the worth of a player. Holds do not (neither really do saves).
to holds
|