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The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
Emperor
of Ice Cream
Mar 2000
time: 23:24
Exclamation  Old Post 16-02-2005 16:03
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So Much For The "First Law of Robotics" Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote:
A New Model Army Soldier Rolls Closer to the Battlefield
By TIM WEINER

Published: February 16, 2005


he American military is working on a new generation of soldiers, far different from the army it has.

"They don't get hungry," said Gordon Johnson of the Joint Forces Command at the Pentagon. "They're not afraid. They don't forget their orders. They don't care if the guy next to them has just been shot. Will they do a better job than humans? Yes."

The robot soldier is coming.

The Pentagon predicts that robots will be a major fighting force in the American military in less than a decade, hunting and killing enemies in combat. Robots are a crucial part of the Army's effort to rebuild itself as a 21st-century fighting force, and a $127 billion project called Future Combat Systems is the biggest military contract in American history.

The military plans to invest tens of billions of dollars in automated armed forces. The costs of that transformation will help drive the Defense Department's budget up almost 20 percent, from a requested $419.3 billion for next year to $502.3 billion in 2010, excluding the costs of war. The annual costs of buying new weapons is scheduled to rise 52 percent, from $78 billion to $118.6 billion.

Military planners say robot soldiers will think, see and react increasingly like humans. In the beginning, they will be remote-controlled, looking and acting like lethal toy trucks. As the technology develops, they may take many shapes. And as their intelligence grows, so will their autonomy.

The robot soldier has been a dream at the Pentagon for 30 years. And some involved in the work say it may take at least 30 more years to realize in full. Well before then, they say, the military will have to answer tough questions if it intends to trust robots with the responsibility of distinguishing friend from foe, combatant from bystander.

Even the strongest advocates of automatons say war will always be a human endeavor, with death and disaster. And supporters like Robert Finkelstein, president of Robotic Technology in Potomac, Md., are telling the Pentagon it could take until 2035 to develop a robot that looks, thinks and fights like a soldier. The Pentagon's "goal is there," he said, "but the path is not totally clear."

Robots in battle, as envisioned by their builders, may look and move like humans or hummingbirds, tractors or tanks, cockroaches or crickets. With the development of nanotechnology - the science of very small structures - they may become swarms of "smart dust." The Pentagon intends for robots to haul munitions, gather intelligence, search buildings or blow them up.

All these are in the works, but not yet in battle. Already, however, several hundred robots are digging up roadside bombs in Iraq, scouring caves in Afghanistan and serving as armed sentries at weapons depots.

By April, an armed version of the bomb-disposal robot will be in Baghdad, capable of firing 1,000 rounds a minute. Though controlled by a soldier with a laptop, the robot will be the first thinking machine of its kind to take up a front-line infantry position, ready to kill enemies.

"The real world is not Hollywood," said Rodney A. Brooks, director of the Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence Laboratory at M.I.T. and a co-founder of the iRobot Corporation. "Right now we have the first few robots that are actually useful to the military."

Despite the obstacles, Congress ordered in 2000 that a third of the ground vehicles and a third of deep-strike aircraft in the military must become robotic within a decade. If that mandate is to be met, the United States will spend many billions of dollars on military robots by 2010.

As the first lethal robots head for Iraq, the role of the robot soldier as a killing machine has barely been debated. The history of warfare suggests that every new technological leap - the longbow, the tank, the atomic bomb - outraces the strategy and doctrine to control it.

"The lawyers tell me there are no prohibitions against robots making life-or-death decisions," said Mr. Johnson, who leads robotics efforts at the Joint Forces Command research center in Suffolk, Va. "I have been asked what happens if the robot destroys a school bus rather than a tank parked nearby. We will not entrust a robot with that decision until we are confident they can make it."

Trusting robots with potentially lethal decision-making may require a leap of faith in technology not everyone is ready to make. Bill Joy, a co-founder of Sun Microsystems, has worried aloud that 21st-century robotics and nanotechnology may become "so powerful that they can spawn whole new classes of accidents and abuses."


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/16/t...5&partner=MYWAY

So, plans are already in the works for autonomous machines that can kill.

Should Asimov's Laws be ignored as a simple piece of fiction, or should they be considered?

Will future events make them palatable, or even inevitable?

Last edited by The Mad Monk on 16-02-2005 at 16:08

BeBro is offline BeBro
King
of the Krauts
Mar 2000
time: 06:24
  Old Post 16-02-2005 16:07 Visit BeBro's homepage!
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I wonder if Hollywoods war movies of the next decades will feature heroic robots defending freedom

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:24
  Old Post 16-02-2005 16:10 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by BeBro
I wonder if Hollywoods war movies of the next decades will feature heroic robots defending freedom


I guess you haven't seen the Terminator sequels. How do you think we got our Governator?

Dr Zoidberg is offline Dr Zoidberg

King
Communist Party of Apolyton
Jan 2002
time: 06:24
  Old Post 16-02-2005 16:14
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With robots doing the actual killing there is no stopping the war, since no bodys will be shipped home and the horrific reality of war won´t disturb the lives of people back home...

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:24
  Old Post 16-02-2005 16:20 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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Got spare money?

Eh. They won't have the money for it.

Dr Zoidberg is offline Dr Zoidberg

King
Communist Party of Apolyton
Jan 2002
time: 06:24
  Old Post 16-02-2005 16:23
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The US military budget is already obscenly high. They will afford it, even if no one else will...

BeBro is offline BeBro
King
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Mar 2000
time: 06:24
  Old Post 16-02-2005 16:24 Visit BeBro's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious


I guess you haven't seen the Terminator sequels. How do you think we got our Governator?


Have seen them, but he still looked human in those movies, except when he got injured ....errrm....damaged.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:24
  Old Post 16-02-2005 16:25 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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I mean it's going to be slow going. Humans will still have to fight for the forseeable future.

molly bloom is offline molly bloom
Prince
Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:24
  Old Post 16-02-2005 16:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious


I guess you haven't seen the Terminator sequels. How do you think we got our Governator?


Television- the drug of the nation.

(with thanks to the Disposable Heroes of Hiphoprisy)


Same way you 'got' Reagan- people wanted 'Shane' and ended up with Hopalong Cassidy.

BeBro is offline BeBro
King
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Mar 2000
time: 06:24
  Old Post 16-02-2005 16:26 Visit BeBro's homepage!
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Yeah, and for some tasks using robots may still not work even with more advanced technology.

molly bloom is offline molly bloom
Prince
Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:24
  Old Post 16-02-2005 16:29
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quote:
Originally posted by BeBro
Yeah, and for some tasks using robots may still not work even with more advanced technology.


Programming the dvd recorder ?

Dr Zoidberg is offline Dr Zoidberg

King
Communist Party of Apolyton
Jan 2002
time: 06:24
  Old Post 16-02-2005 16:35
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Telling the difference between a military convoy and a refugees?

molly bloom is offline molly bloom
Prince
Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:24
  Old Post 16-02-2005 16:36
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Keeping coloured items that run out of all white washes?


Ensuring you never get an odd sock ?

BeBro is offline BeBro
King
of the Krauts
Mar 2000
time: 06:24
  Old Post 16-02-2005 16:38 Visit BeBro's homepage!
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Now you got me, I can't answer that

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:24
  Old Post 16-02-2005 16:39 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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So we will all be reduced to nothing but finding the lost socks.

molly bloom is offline molly bloom
Prince
Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:24
  Old Post 16-02-2005 16:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
So we will all be reduced to finding the lost socks.



Sounds like you have the basis for a very lengthy literary trilogy and later film adaptation there.


Now find a small country in the southern hemisphere....

The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
Emperor
of Ice Cream
Mar 2000
time: 23:24
  Old Post 16-02-2005 16:42
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Raiders of the Lost Socks?

Whoha is offline Whoha
King
The TOC is supposed to be classified guys...
Dec 2001
time: 23:24
  Old Post 16-02-2005 20:06
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His laws are pure fiction. There is nothing in silicon/iron/unobtainium that tells a machine not to harm/maim/kill a person. However, trusting a machine to make a good decision right now is quite foolish, so this probably won't go very far.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:24
  Old Post 16-02-2005 20:07 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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You know, I really don't think autonomous killing machines are a good idea.

St Leo is offline St Leo
King of Scenario League
Member of the Apolyton Social Democratic Party
Jul 2005
time: 00:24
  Old Post 16-02-2005 20:29 Visit St Leo<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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ObSimpsons:
"The wars of the future will not be fought on the battlefield or at sea.
They will be fought in space, or possibly on top of a very tall
mountain. In either case, most of the actual fighting will be done by
small robots. And as you go forth today remember always your duty is
clear: To build and maintain those robots. Thank you."


- Commandant, The Secret War of Lisa Simpsons

Sn00py is offline Sn00py
King
From New Zealand
Aug 2001
time: 13:24
  Old Post 16-02-2005 20:33 Visit Sn00py's homepage!
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The bit about the dust sounds the most scary.

You wouldn't know if you were being attacked or not, before its too late.

DaShi is offline DaShi
Prince
The Taste of Japan
Sep 2000
time: 05:24
  Old Post 16-02-2005 20:57
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quote:
Originally posted by St Leo
ObSimpsons:
"The wars of the future will not be fought on the battlefield or at sea.
They will be fought in space, or possibly on top of a very tall
mountain. In either case, most of the actual fighting will be done by
small robots. And as you go forth today remember always your duty is
clear: To build and maintain those robots. Thank you."


- Commandant, The Secret War of Lisa Simpsons


Leela: They say Zapp Brannigan single handedly saved the Octillion system from a horde of rampaging kill bots.
Fry: Wow!
Bender: A grim day for robotkind, eh, but we can always build more kill bots.

:) Smiley is offline :) Smiley
Emperor
USCA, Berkeley
Feb 2001
time: 21:24
  Old Post 16-02-2005 21:35 Visit :) Smiley's homepage!
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They're developing the "smart dust" stuff a couple blocks away down on campus here, and right now the focus is on sensing. Prety much the idea behind it is a bunch of these miniature sensors with radios are dropped over an area to gather information. Getting the stuff to attack is way in the future.

child of Thor is offline child of Thor
Emperor
UK
Jan 2002
time: 05:24
  Old Post 16-02-2005 21:39
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It will probably be ok for our life-time, they are pretty primitive(they had one getting stuck in a bit of snow for example - so live somewhere cold ).

But after that all those movies/stories may come back to haunt our descendents? Maybe this is the reason for that free game 'America's Army' - get a load of kids already 'programed' to be used to simulating a soldier?

OzzyKP is offline OzzyKP
King
Rockville, MD
Oct 1999
time: 00:24
  Old Post 16-02-2005 22:13 Visit OzzyKP's homepage!
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America's Army

I am a virtual killing machine

Immortal Wombat is offline Immortal Wombat
Prince
in perpetuity
Dec 2000
time: 05:24
  Old Post 16-02-2005 22:51 Visit Immortal Wombat's homepage!
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EMPs

Geronimo is offline Geronimo
King
st cloud USA
Jan 1970
time: 05:24
Lightbulb  Old Post 16-02-2005 23:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Immortal Wombat
EMPs


I wouldn't doubt they might start borrowing the technology NASA uses to build rad hardened electronics into their space probes and adapting it to shrug off EMPs.

Dis is offline Dis
Emperor
Las Vegas, Nevada
Feb 2000
time: 21:24
  Old Post 17-02-2005 00:26 Visit Dis's homepage!
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edit: after completely reading the article, it seems they aren't true robots. just remotely controlled vehicles. big deal.

Elok is offline Elok
Prince
Land of Ramen Dragons
Mar 2003
time: 00:24
  Old Post 17-02-2005 03:19
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What, were you thinking Voltron, or just Terminator?

Dr Strangelove is offline Dr Strangelove
King
USA
Jan 1970
time: 00:24
  Old Post 17-02-2005 03:29
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Designing a robot that can distinguish between friend and foe (and lket's not ofget the neutral innocents too) will be quite a job.

Just out of curiosity, what will they use to power the "smart dust"? Sure they're small, but today's electric batteries aren't that powerful.

 
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