19-02-2005 09:04									#31
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 You want to end the war quickly, so spending time bombarding over and over will drag out the war and cause WW.

Acutally, I find that I'm not dragging out the war because I'm not bombarding over and over.

I bombard and then attack on the same turn. As soon as every cat is done bombarding, the archers finish a the job.


As for WW, I find that this way generates less WW, not more.

The simple fact is that I have gone 30 turns of war without loosing a single attacking unit.

Can you say the same about your method?

Dan O.

	19-02-2005 23:33									#32
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Sorry I thought I was clear, but I guess I was not. I tried to clearly say that your way will work fine. I tried to say that in a game that was not on Warlord and was not using 4 civs, you may find it is problematic.

That is to say at Warlord, you will not have WW concerns, you have 4 content citizen to start. You will get a temple and a couple of lux before you have any action, so happiness is not an issue, case closed.

Now do know that you are getting WW even with a total whacking of the AI. You get a point for having a unit in enemy lands. You get 2 points for even being attacked and winning. It is just that it won't matter at Warlord. If it was at a level that gets only 1 content pop, you may still have issues.

You also have to deal with the fact that the Ai will much more robust and not quite as easy to push around. Add in a full number of civs and you get less land and less time to build those 16 cats, et al.

My real point was that it takes time to build lots of cats and support cast in the early game. This is hurting all other production considerations, including research.

You also have to have researched Math, this is too late in a game with the normal number of civs and a higher level.

These are the things I am thinking about and chosing to take a few losses to get to the ai sooner and have a shorter war. If my war last 10 turns, I do not have to worry about WW.

So in answer to your posit, no I do not have a method that is better than not losing any units. I said at the top that is fine. I merely attempted to point out some other factors in case you or others are in a tougher game.

So again I will say if you can get a 4 to 1 ratio of bombardment units to defenders, you will be in great shape. This will become very expensive and harder and harder to do as you move up and you may find you will have to take another tact. It is only for your consideration and you are free to ignore it.

Note I did not find any fault with your tactic, so no need to be defensive. It is merley an FYI

	20-02-2005 01:36									#33
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Gotcha Vmxa.

It sure is fun though, taking on cities with 4 pikemen and 2 spearman with 20 trebs.

You can kill all of them without loosing a single longbowman.

And artillery are a blast (no pun intended). The neat thing about artillery is you only need a ratio of about 1:2 against defenders, as long as they are behind a few techs.

Artillery get a bombard rate of 2, which means you get two rolls to see if you can make a hit. If both rolls are wins, then the enemy takes two hits.

I found that I only needed 4-6 artillery to demolish the defenses of a middle ages AI.

Do you ever use artillery of any type Vmxa, such as industrial era wars?

I found them to be invaluable, especially with calary and tanks, and you really don't need more than 4-6 for your average town. Maybe 8 for a capitol.


The thing is, I tried playing with just archers during the ancient era on Warlord, I got my ass kicked. I don't know if it was bad rolls or what, but my ass was kicked, royally.

I later tried to take on pikemen with Longbowman. I lost 8 of them trying to take a city defended by three pikemen.

Dan O.

	20-02-2005 02:07									#34
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Yes attacking pikes with LB is hard way to go. They can win, but you would want to have them damaged by bombardment first. I rarely use LB for anything. They are just upgrades of my left over archers normally. In the open field they are fine, but tend to not get that many oportunities.

Archers will really do poorly as they have only half the attack of a LB.

But yes I will take advantage of anything that makes sense at the time. I will use cats at times and cannon and all forms. Artillery is sort of late, so I tend to use them to defend invaders and shipping.

I will want a more moble attack force and be using horses, knights and armies as much as I can. A big consideration will be that I can't make enough cats early in the game and later I will have faster units. I also will often be invading from over seas and have a limited number of ships to bring units.

This means I need fighting units more than anything. I would love to have a large stack of cats (or whatever is current), but I do not want to get say 10 less defenders.

I am betting that say 10 cats will do less for me in holding the city than 10 pikes. This is because defenders will not have to fight as many battles and increase their survival.

Now this may be wrong, but it is what I tend to do until I find it is not optimal.

	20-02-2005 02:18									#35
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So to expain in some detail what I mean:

If I have 30 units landing and found a city and expect to see maybe 20 units attack and then maybe a few rounds of from 1 to 40 units hit me, I would rather have all troops and zero cats.

Cats is generic here. If I have no armies and it is say pikes and knights and they have the same and mabe a mix of archers,swords and a few horses to use. Probably some spears to cover.

I do not want 20 units and 10 cats as I get the bombardment and then I have only 20 units to survive all those fights. I would probably see many pikes die that could have take a few less battles with an extra 10 units.

Now if you could bring those 30 and 20 cats as well and face the same units, then you have a cake walk. At some levels and some games this will be possible, but often you will have to go with less than an over whelming force.

Now in my sid games, these numbers are scaled way up, but the concept is the same. I need all the defenders and attackers I can bring. In fact bombardment units are even less useful to me.

This is because I will maybe get 150 attacks the first round and have no chance of bring enough cats to do much good. I have brought along 10-20 and ended up wishing I had defenders instead. This also frees up my attackers to go on the attack after I survive the counter attack.

	20-02-2005 02:36									#36
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Hey Vmxa, about the atillery not being fast...

I find that I don't need them to be fast, the AI usually has plenty of roads for them to ride on.

What I do is:

Turn 1) Arrive on a tile, two tiles from the city. Unless the city has a lot of culture, this can often be done from the last conquered city in one turn via roads. IE, your newly conquered city had 0 culture, so one move on your road, one move onto theirs. Now you are within range of bombardment.

Turn 2)Bombard the city with artillery from two sqaures away. Then send in calvary/tanks to clean up the job.

Each calvary or tank gets three moves. Move one should be to get next to the city, move two should be attack. After attack, press "w" for wait.

End of Turn 2) Move all units with one move or more left into the city, except for two defenders to guard the already moved artillery.

This is easy to do now, because the roads are yours.

Turn 3) Move all units outside the city into the city until resisting is over. With a good sized stack, this should only be another turn or two.

Turn 4-6) Repeat steps 1-3



After I realized I was using too big of a stack, I divided my invasion force into two seperate invasion forces This meant I was taking two cities every 3 to 4 turns.

Also, the only calvary I lost were ones that went to take out other calvary, and were attacked while outside the stack. (they were picking off my workers. )



One thing I have not mentioned is that I only built half of my arty. The other half were captured.

As for taking arty across the sea, yeah, I didn't bother with that either. Of course, I had Modern Armor, and they had riflemen and pikemen, but anyway.

I did however learn just how important bombers are in overseas wars. I was able to use my bombers from across the sea, and walk right into an undefended city with my marines. By the time they brought in reinforcements I already had a 4x Mod Arm Army, four single Mod Arm, and 2 Mech Inf in there!

Dan O.

Dan O.

	20-02-2005 02:42									#37
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 So to expain in some detail what I mean: If I have 30 units landing and found a city and expect to see maybe 20 units attack and then maybe a few rounds of from 1 to 40 units hit me, I would rather have all troops and zero cats. Cats is generic here. If I have no armies and it is say pikes and knights and they have the same and mabe a mix of archers,swords and a few horses to use. Probably some spears to cover. I do not want 20 units and 10 cats as I get the bombardment and then I have only 20 units to survive all those fights. I would probably see many pikes die that could have take a few less battles with an extra 10 units. Now if you could bring those 30 and 20 cats as well and face the same units, then you have a cake walk. At some levels and some games this will be possible, but often you will have to go with less than an over whelming force. Now in my sid games, these numbers are scaled way up, but the concept is the same. I need all the defenders and attackers I can bring. In fact bombardment units are even less useful to me. This is because I will maybe get 150 attacks the first round and have no chance of bring enough cats to do much good. I have brought along 10-20 and ended up wishing I had defenders instead. This also frees up my attackers to go on the attack after I survive the counter attack.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

I have never played above monarch though, and it's been years since I last attempted monarch.

What levels do you think my stategy would be applicable for?

Could I even use it on Monarch?

Dan O.

	20-02-2005 02:51									#38
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Yes, and actually the higher your level, the more useful artilerly type units are.

	20-02-2005 03:51									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Melboz99 What levels do you think my stategy would be applicable for? Could I even use it on Monarch? Dan O.

It will work on any, it is just that it gets harder and harder to pull off.

	20-02-2005 04:12									#40
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Originally posted by Melboz99
"Hey Vmxa, about the atillery not being fast...

I find that I don't need them to be fast, the AI usually has plenty of roads for them to ride on."

Well roads mean nothing if they are in the enemies borders as you cannot use them. So it is the same as if the road does not exist for you.

"What I do is:

Turn 1) Arrive on a tile, two tiles from the city. Unless the city has a lot of culture, this can often be done from the last conquered city in one turn via roads. IE, your newly conquered city had 0 culture, so one move on your road, one move onto theirs. Now you are within range of bombardment."

Same as no roads.

"Turn 2)Bombard the city with artillery from two sqaures away. Then send in calvary/tanks to clean up the job."

Ok, to me if you have tanks and they don't, you are free to do what ever you wish.

"Each calvary or tank gets three moves. Move one should be to get next to the city, move two should be attack. After attack, press "w" for wait."

Tanks only get two moves, MA's get three.

"End of Turn 2) Move all units with one move or more left into the city, except for two defenders to guard the already moved artillery.
This is easy to do now, because the roads are yours.
Turn 3) Move all units outside the city into the city until resisting is over. With a good sized stack, this should only be another turn or two.

Turn 4-6) Repeat steps 1-3

After I realized I was using too big of a stack, I divided my invasion force into two seperate invasion forces This meant I was taking two cities every 3 to 4 turns.

Also, the only calvary I lost were ones that went to take out other calvary, and were attacked while outside the stack. (they were picking off my workers. )"

"As for taking arty across the sea, yeah, I didn't bother with that either. Of course, I had Modern Armor, and they had riflemen and pikemen, but anyway. "

"I did however learn just how important bombers are in overseas wars. I was able to use my bombers from across the sea, and walk right into an undefended city with my marines. By the time they brought in reinforcements I already had a 4x Mod Arm Army, four single Mod Arm, and 2 Mech Inf in there! "


Basically that tactics is the norm. The only issues is that civ stronger than you or weaker than you. In games were the Ai has no bonus (chief/warlord/Regent) you tend to be stronger and have more culture.

As you move up these are less and less likely to be the case and the culture could be very much in their favor. This means you do not want to capture cities as you will have to sit on them a long time. That stops the progress of the war.

In that case you will maybe bring along a settler and even workers to raze road/rail and found. This is the way you gain access to the road/rails and do not have to leave a ton of troops sitting on a captured city.

So what becomes apparent is that they are many ways to skin a cat as it were.

	20-02-2005 08:31									#41
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AS my tactics, in Civ2 I used to produce a lot of bombers and mech infantry. Bombed their cities from the air, then captured them without finding any resistance.

In CivIII, air bombardment appears to be ineffective, without considering possible enemy defenses which can simply shoot your planes down. Land and Sea bombardment also uses to be silly till the very late ages, were you can build powerfull howitzers and battleships.

SO, in ancient or medieval combat, I wonder how many cannons (or catapults) you MUST build (and use) to effectively support an invading land army (when army is not a single leader-units-into-units but multiple soldiers).

	20-02-2005 08:43									#42
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Well as we have been saying, or at least I have, you don't need any. You would like to have as many as you can get, if they can be kept in the action.

So if your goal is to get the job done and not lose any troops, you need to have enough to drop defenders to 1 hp. If your goal is to get it done quickly and you have the troops to do it with no support go for it.

	20-02-2005 08:46									#43
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SO no air, no naval, no artillery units... Creepy, they should have been made more powerful than what they actually are.

	20-02-2005 10:05									#44
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Well navy is another matter. We have been talking about ancient or ealy middle ages mostly. At that time, you have no bombardment ships.


Air units are so late, but bombers are lethal in C3C. That makes them very useful. Sinking that ship that you clipped with arties or are too far away to reach.

They have situational values as well.

	22-02-2005 20:32									#45
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 So to expain in some detail what I mean: If I have 30 units landing and found a city and expect to see maybe 20 units attack and then maybe a few rounds of from 1 to 40 units hit me, I would rather have all troops and zero cats. ... This is because I will maybe get 150 attacks the first round and have no chance of bring enough cats to do much good. I have brought along 10-20 and ended up wishing I had defenders instead. This also frees up my attackers to go on the attack after I survive the counter attack.

Don't those numbers imply an incredible amount of WW? Each defensive battle costs 2 and each time an attacker loses it costs another 2.

Assuming tech and overall unit count parity (not true at Sid, I know), wouldn't you suffer less WW with a large, slow stack bombarding?

I'm also curious if your opinion changes if you don't have horses.

	22-02-2005 21:14									#46
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I never worry about WW. Even if I am in say an Emperor game playing as a Republic. I will do all I can to end the war in less than 20 turns.

This is not always possible and then I will have to spend more to keep the citizens in check.

In sid games, I will normally go with a gov that has no WW and stay at war for very long stretches. This is common fo rme as they will not make peace without some losses. I may have war declared on me and not fight that civ for a long time.

They will send troops from time to time, but the losses will not seem to bother them. I will not accept peace without a payment as a matter of principle. You must pay a price for it, unless you are hurting me.

Horses or not I do not care for bombardment in an invasion force. Unless you are in a game where you are vastly ahead of the civ you are invading, you just cannot spare slots on ships for cats (cannon, what ever).

At any stage I would rather have an attacker or a defender than a cat. Now if you are attacking civs on your landmass that is different. In that case in an all one move war, go ahead and use them in numbers.

	22-02-2005 21:56									#47
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I found that in the ancient age or the middle ages it's easy to use cats as defense. In the Industrial it's even easier.

The only catch is that the enemy can't have any fast units. This means that in the ancient and middle ages wars the don't have any horses, and in the industrial era they don't have any oil.

Once you move your 10-20 cats and artillery into a captured city, their slow units will have to advance one square at a time. This is just great if you have cats or artillery, because you can knock them all down before they attack.

For example, say it's the middle ages and they've got 10 longbowman defended by 3 spears, each in it's own stack of 4-5 units.

Simply bombard each stack in turn, such that you will have knocked all the stacks' defenses down equally. Then, take your slow units, longbowman in this case, or a fast unit if you have plenty, and kill off all the defenders and attackers until there is only one unit left in each stack.

The final unit should be taken out by a fast unit, this way he can move back into the city.


When I was playing against the Koreans they dumped about 30-40 longbowman on me defended by about 4-5 spearmen.

The AI's problem was that it couldn't coordinate the attack properly, so it always sent in about 10-15 units at a time.

I simply bombarded the hell out of them as they arrived at the city, and finised them off with my longbowman and calvary.

If you have artillery, you can take them down to one hit point before they even get to your city, and you just finish them off with your calvary or tanks.

Dan O.

	22-02-2005 22:47									#48
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Why bother bombarding Longbows?

	23-02-2005 00:55									#49
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Dan at most levels you should not be defending with spears vs LB. If you get a no iron game or playing at deity and sid ok. Otherwise I will have better than spears and probably have attackers that will eat LB for lunch. They have a defense of 1 and hence are the same as warriors on defense individually.

Anyway I already said that cats (this is generic) are fine for use on your land mass. It is when you have to invade over water that they become a lux that you cannot afford.

What is the chance that you will have all of these cats in the proper location at the proper time? Only if they are counter attacking a captured city. Mobile attackers are superior as they can get where they are needed and have retreat.

Std map games do not tend to see 20 cats all that often. I cannot recall playing any or reading any in AU matches. There is a reason for this and I have been trying to point it out. Later you wil see larger numbers of arts, but they were probably not all built from scratch and in late game you can make them fast.

In the main I would rather use production for something else, rather than lots of cats. I need to be aquiring horses s they can be used now and can be upgraded later.

	23-02-2005 01:13									#50
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Come to think about I don't think I have ever had 4 or 5 spears in the same city. Why would I build so many worthless units?

I think many people make too many spears, especially when playing at the first three levels. It is quite ok to not even build a single spear at monarch or less on std maps or larger.

Swords can defend as well as spears and can go on the attack. What is so hateful about spears at levels where barbs are tough is they cannot be used to kill that roving barbs in your radius.

This is not a concern at levels where you have 800/400 or so vs barbs, but as it gets to zero you can't be asured of a win.

	23-02-2005 01:36									#51
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Come to think about I don't think I have ever had 4 or 5 spears in the same city. Why would I build so many worthless units?

For easy upgrades, I guess. And to deter the AI from attacking by making border cities look fortified. I often have 2-4 defenders (depending on the date) in border cities, and only attackers in the others. This is for peaceful games, when I rarely attack first.

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Swords can defend as well as spears and can go on the attack. What is so hateful about spears at levels where barbs are tough is they cannot be used to kill that roving barbs in your radius.

Swords defend much worse than Pikes. Again, the upgrade path is important. Perhaps it is different on Sid, but my Spears usually survive to be upgraded. If I get to Mech Infantry, some of them will often be the only Regulars in my army - because they were the first Spears a looong time ago.

The second-best are mounted units, because they upgrade to something useful, and they can react fast. Foot attackers, like Archers and Swordsmen, are not only slow, but become obsolete too quickly for too long. They are good for immediate threats, so not for someone playing peaceful.

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 This is not a concern at levels where you have 800/400 or so vs barbs, but as it gets to zero you can't be asured of a win.

I prefer Spearmen sitting on rough terrain just outside my borders. Even the barb Horsemen kill themselves very often. You need not hunt them down - you simply use their predictable movements. Just a matter of approach, I think.

	23-02-2005 01:47									#52
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How does all of this strategy change if you are invading human opponents, ie in PBEM?

	23-02-2005 01:49									#53
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oh, and Modo: That quote is from "The Truth" and is spoken (or atleast thought) by William de Worde, isn't it?

	23-02-2005 02:01									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Krill How does all of this strategy change if you are invading human opponents, ie in PBEM?

My experience is very limited here. Expect to be surprised, I guess. Something the AI does not provide.

As to the quote, I honestly do not know where Terry Pratchett found it.

	23-02-2005 02:23									#55
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Originally posted by Modo44

"Swords defend much worse than Pikes. Again, the upgrade path is important. Perhaps it is different on Sid, but my Spears usually survive to be upgraded. If I get to Mech Infantry, some of them will often be the only Regulars in my army - because they were the first Spears a looong time ago."

Ok, I guess so, but we were talking abou spears not pikes. If you are going to be weak compared to them, then by all means make defenders. Otherwise, I do not want to be looking at a bunch of spears to pay for upgrades to pikes, that won't be used.

Then muskets that won't be use, then rifles that won't be used and so on. Better I put it into something else, say attackers that will be used.

Now if you are in a game were you are under pressure right away, again please do make some spears.

The only difference for me at sid is that if they are coming while I have spears, I am dead.

But how about monarch, do I need spears all over the place? Border towns, even when at conflict, I do not need 4 spears. How about 1 and I have attackers instead.

"The second-best are mounted units, because they upgrade to something useful, and they can react fast. Foot attackers, like Archers and Swordsmen, are not only slow, but become obsolete too quickly for too long. They are good for immediate threats, so not for someone playing peaceful. "

No kidding. I am not sure why this was mention, but I am sure we are all aware of the fact. I am pretty sure I have mention my preference for hosres many times. The deal is that you may not have hosres or the tech at that time.

If I have 4 units and they are horses, rather than swords, I may lose that fight. Horses will not win fights that swords will. But that was not really the topic. We were addressing defensive qualities and horses have none, better to have the spears in that case.


"I prefer Spearmen sitting on rough terrain just outside my borders. Even the barb Horsemen kill themselves very often. You need not hunt them down - you simply use their predictable movements. Just a matter of approach, I think."

Well not really. I was talking about a maruader coming into that frontier town. Maybe you have a worker there, the spear is not a reliable unit in that situation. You don't get to sit and wait for it to attack as it won't.

It will kill your worker or force it to go back to the town, it may destroy improvements. It may blockade that tile that had the bonus food and force no growth or worse.

So in the main you made valid points, but they were not on topic for the points being made. You may as well have talked about football as to talk about forted spears on a hill in a reference to spears not being able to stop maruarders. Sorry to be blunt.

	23-02-2005 02:25									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Krill How does all of this strategy change if you are invading human opponents, ie in PBEM?

You don't actually expect me to TELL that do you?


Seriously, I think it's all numbers in the end:

You'll typically either want to be attacking a human earlier by surprise or later with a larger and more diverse force (and possibly ally?).

For instance, I have no qualms taking AI on with 5 archers because I know I'll face 2 spears on defense. Humans, throw all that out and dependant on time period, what civ they are, what is known about the city in question, his troop diposition if known, etc etc.

	23-02-2005 02:25									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Krill How does all of this strategy change if you are invading human opponents, ie in PBEM?

Most everything changes in that case. But this is not the PBEM forum, so we ignore MP in most of these conversations.

	23-02-2005 02:58									#58
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 "Swords defend much worse than Pikes. Again, the upgrade path is important. Perhaps it is different on Sid, but my Spears usually survive to be upgraded. If I get to Mech Infantry, some of them will often be the only Regulars in my army - because they were the first Spears a looong time ago." Ok, I guess so, but we were talking abou spears not pikes. If you are going to be weak compared to them, then by all means make defenders. Otherwise, I do not want to be looking at a bunch of spears to pay for upgrades to pikes, that won't be used.

Dan was talking about having Cavalry, so his Spears can very well become Pikes, or even Muskets soon. That potential 3 or 4 defense is their immediate value in his case. He just needs to be told, that upgrading units is important in order to win.

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Then muskets that won't be use, then rifles that won't be used and so on. Better I put it into something else, say attackers that will be used.

My units are there to provide numbers, deterring the AI from attacking. Also, they are needed on the borders in case one does a sneak-attack. You always get better value defending with dedicated defenders, because if they die, you lose less shields. Yes, this might be somewhat different if one plays purely offensive. But as soon as you have a stable border, you will need some blockers for it. Those that "do nothing".

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 But how about monarch, do I need spears all over the place? Border towns, even when at conflict, I do not need 4 spears. How about 1 and I have attackers instead.

2 Spears, 2 or 3 Pikes, 3 or 4 Muskets and better, depending on production capabilities. The AI is often afraid of those defended cities, and will try to get deeper, if it attacks at all. If it does, it will be bypassing targets it could actually take, and exposing its attackers to my attackers, who are hidden deeper in my territory. Works best if border cities get 1-2 bombard units, because they seem to scare the AI even more.

Yes, you can do without defenders, but only if you are absolutely sure the AI will not attack. Either by keeping very good relations, or by attacking it, so that no units get through.

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 No kidding. I am not sure why this was mention, but I am sure we are all aware of the fact. I am pretty sure I have mention my preference for hosres many times. The deal is that you may not have hosres or the tech at that time.

Then, I will rely on bombard+foot attackers some more. And more dedicated defenders for protection in the field.

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 If I have 4 units and they are horses, rather than swords, I may lose that fight. Horses will not win fights that swords will. But that was not really the topic. We were addressing defensive qualities and horses have none, better to have the spears in that case.

Basic power of Horsies: they move twice as fast. They might be worse 1:1 against a Sword (might), but I need less to effectively fend off an AI (kill its invasion force), because they are that much more mobile. Also, they can often attack and move to safety, something a Sword cannot. This gets better with Knights, and awesome with Cavalry. So yes, they are second best on defense. Better than foot units IMO.

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 "I prefer Spearmen sitting on rough terrain just outside my borders. Even the barb Horsemen kill themselves very often. You need not hunt them down - you simply use their predictable movements. Just a matter of approach, I think." Well not really. I was talking about a maruader coming into that frontier town. Maybe you have a worker there, the spear is not a reliable unit in that situation. You don't get to sit and wait for it to attack as it won't. It will kill your worker or force it to go back to the town, it may destroy improvements. It may blockade that tile that had the bonus food and force no growth or worse.

Point taken. Distant cities (the outpost kind) are an exception.
Except for Sumeria.

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Sorry to be blunt.

Me too.

	23-02-2005 04:21									#59
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"quote:
Originally posted by vmxa1
If I have 4 units and they are horses, rather than swords, I may lose that fight. Horses will not win fights that swords will. But that was not really the topic. We were addressing defensive qualities and horses have none, better to have the spears in that case.

Basic power of Horsies: they move twice as fast. They might be worse 1:1 against a Sword (might), but I need less to effectively fend off an AI (kill its invasion force), because they are that much more mobile. Also, they can often attack and move to safety, something a Sword cannot. This gets better with Knights, and awesome with Cavalry. So yes, they are second best on defense. Better than foot units IMO."

This is confusing to me agains as I do not see it as relevant to my point. If you just make the statement without my quotes, I would say ok, I can't fight that.

But when you juxtapose with my quote as you did, I wonder what is the relevance? Did I not make a clear point?

If you take it out of context, I concede. If you keep it in context with the point (a outlying town with 4 to 5 spears) being attacked by LB. The horses do not work as they cannot defend against an attack. It was a town being attacked by LB. The defenders cannot retreat. They win or die.

So yes I would rather have swords and 1 spear. Those LB can get killed by my swords. Maybe by the horses, but I would not count on it and I would be in that scenario.

Then you talk about better with knights or calvs and I say why MA? None of those were in the mix at that stage of the game and so all are irrelevent. Its a non sequitur.

The only reason I mention it is 3 times you quoted me and made responses that we fine in and of themselve, but were not responsive to the point. Why include my statements, just make your points, they standalone. They are not wrong, well maybe the part about attacking swords with horses. That would scare me, if they were even numbers and my town was in the balance.

So if I am not stating my case clearly, I am sorry. I do try to make sense, but I have been known to fail at it. Maybe I am not getting what you are saying, but it does not seem to be so much in opposition as it is trying to add in some other concepts.

	10-03-2005 06:51									#60
	Support Apolyton

I classify my invasion plans into these objectives:

1. Minor expansion; trim enemy borders near me (3-7 cities).
2. Break legs; take down next highest ranked competitor (capture / destroy half of enemy cities).
3. Annihilation; destroy (possibly previously weakened) enemy. (capture all enemy cities, possibly exempting extremely remote cities on distant islands).
4. Acquire resource. (carve a path to resource, 1-4 cities).

For this, I count the number of cities I need to destroy and pick a multiplier for the number of offensive units (not including artillery and defensive units) I will need. You should not expect this multiplier to be less than 5 unless you have a significant tech lead and know their defenders are totally outclassed. I haven't gotten into the hundred+ unit games like other people here, so usually this multipler is between 5 and 10 for me.

Usually I will go with one of three invasion plans;

A. Single big stack (1,2,3,4) to break through at one point. This stack might split off into two directions once the first couple of cities fall.

B. Two or three (2,3) big stacks for a broader entrypoint (overrun the enemy like a flood) and march one direction.

C. Two entrypoints (3), one usually amphibious and one direct over land. This is often needed because I like to sweep up the little towns on outlying islands for completeness sake.


I never let the enemy AI control the sea. The AI generally does not spend enough resources on navy to keep its waters patrolled, and I like to play on Continents and Archipelago. Usually by the industrial and modern ages, I already control my main continent, so there isn't much left to do besides own the sea and invade over mass transports. I use mass submarines, destroyers, carriers, and battleships to destroy all opposing naval forces before attempting landing transports.

On Archipelago, I try to sweep up the islands one by one, which is quite easy in the early modern ages with massed marines. Marines can be one hell of a surprise; sulk off their border with a few transports containing 5-10 marines, declare war, pull up the transport with some destroyers, bomb the sh#t out of the city from 2 or 3 carriers, and invade with marines. Once the city falls, the rest of the transports can dock and unload tanks or modern armor and hit the next ring of cities. What a wake up call for your enemy, eh? Marines from half a world a way showing up on their doorstep and in the first turn 3+ cities fall!

Perhaps my favorite Modus Operandi. I love sneak attacks!