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Modo44
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in western Poland
Jul 2004
time: 06:24
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quote:
Originally posted by theDragon
Where to attack from? (What terrain to use to your best advantage) |
If with fast-movers, I will attack from any place that allows a direct attack on the first turn of the war. If with slow-movers, I will go through rough terrain, to get a defense bonus. Always trying hard NOT to attack across Rivers.
quote:
Originally posted by theDragon
What do you hit first? (The small cities of a nation, or do you go for the heart) |
If planning to enlarge the empire, I will take the cities close enough to be productive, and those that make my borders shorter. If going for a specific target, I will go straight for the target. If on land, a corridor to the target will be made.
The most fun way is destroying a civ by hitting their core. This makes the fight harder, but once those few cities are gone, the AI is basically dead, even if you end the war without wiping them out. Taking small cities first allows them to counter-attack more. Even if my target is a small resource/luxury city, their core will usually get hit as well, because it creates a good distraction.
quote:
Originally posted by theDragon
How do you manage your invading forces? (Do you divide and conquer or do you move like water across the nation) |
Depending on the goal, and mostly - on opportunities. You know, no plan survives contact with the enemy... A small one-city attack can turn into wiping out a civ, if they happen to defend badly. OTOH, a badly prepared all-out assault can end without taking anything...
Always have a backup force to take care of the AI counter-attack. This is of more importance, the higher the difficulty level.
quote:
Originally posted by theDragon
(do you seperate your attacking forces or keep them all in a single stack throughout the war?) |
Going one direction with all forces, whenever possible. If there are more approaches, I guard all, and attack through one.
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Melboz99
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Rockford, Illinois, USA
May 2000
time: 23:24
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It's best to use a three-fold invasion force.
In each invasion force you should have three theese three things.
1. Artillery: These can be anything from catapults to stealth bombers. Always soften the defenses before the attack.
2. Attack units: These can be anything from archers to modern armor. Always bring the unit that has the most punch to finish off the weakened defenses.
3. Defensive units: These are very important because if you have a bunch of archers and cats, they could easily be wiped out by enemy archers. So, bring anything from spearmen to mech infantry.
It's best to have at least 4 defenders. Two will guard the stack, and two will be used to defend any units outside the stack.
Also, bring along as many defenders as you need to defend your captured cities.
One powefull combination is atillery and calvary. The reason is that artillery can attack from two squares away, and calvary can move two squares and then attack.
What you can do with that is attack while outside their territory, with the artillery, take the city with a few calvary, then since the city is yours, you can move the remaining invasion force into the city. Just be sure to keep two defenders guarding the aritllery. 
Basically, you reduce the time to take the city by a turn, and after about 10 cities, you're way ahead of the game. 
Dan O.
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Melboz99
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Rockford, Illinois, USA
May 2000
time: 23:24
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quote:
Originally posted by vmxa1
I would say it is good to invade with that capacity. It is better (read best) to invade with a number of armies, if you can. |
By "armies" do you mean invasion forces?
A number of armies is hard to get without Miltary Acadamy.
Dan O.
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cousLee
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Example. I took a small lux town from the Germans, and just parked my rather large invasion force inside my culture border and waited. The city itself was not strongly defended, and left an opening to get at the city the farthest away from the germans. This "burr in his arse" tactic worked great. Wave after wave of german troops run past my ZOC barrier and the Germans were near dead by the time they hit the opening, at which time I dispatched them with Calv and bombers (and wot ever else was handy). After several turns of this massacre, the flow of German tropps have ebbed. I now know that his surplus troops of annoyance are gone, cities weakly defended, and I have a large fresh invasion force I could go mop him up with, should I so choose.
The BIHA works good even if you don't take a city. Land your forces en-masse and let him come to you (use terrain advantages). Two or three stacks of BIHA will drive any AI nuts.
Plus you get the added benefit of his workers still improving the terrain while you decimate his forces. You can capture them all later. No rush.
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joncnunn
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Maryland Heights, MO
Sep 2002
time: 23:24
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Unless these posts are about invading other human empires, they seem way excessive to me.
Against the AI, if you have a large enough stack, the AI simply won't attack it at all, so it won't need defenders. 
Total suprize attacks are usally counter productive against the AI, when they are at peace and they aren't suspecting anything, their military units are inside their cities. If they are suspecting something, then they have units outside their cities, making them easier to take. 
I've had great success parking my units right outside the AI cultural boundary, declaring war and advancing in but then NOT attacking that same turn, giving the AI the oppertunity to remove some of the defending units in that border city. 
It is important to note during any combat operation against the AI that it has no "gray zone", it has complete knowlege of any tile it's ever explored. But it doesn't stop and consider that by the time it's forces get what is currently underdefended, that area won't be underdefended. 
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Modo44
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in western Poland
Jul 2004
time: 06:24
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quote:
Originally posted by joncnunn
Against the AI, if you have a large enough stack, the AI simply won't attack it at all, so it won't need defenders. |
Must be quite an impressive stack. Mine often get attacked if I march them through open terrain. Especially if without defenders and/or bombard units.
quote:
Originally posted by joncnunn
Total suprize attacks are usally counter productive against the AI, when they are at peace and they aren't suspecting anything, their military units are inside their cities. If they are suspecting something, then they have units outside their cities, making them easier to take. |
That depends. I have patrolling on, so they already are out of cities. If you give them the turn, they might rush a defender, and will definately draft one if they have Nationalism.
quote:
Originally posted by joncnunn
I've had great success parking my units right outside the AI cultural boundary, declaring war and advancing in but then NOT attacking that same turn, giving the AI the oppertunity to remove some of the defending units in that border city. |
I've had greater by taking a line of their cities, and killing everything inside my new borders on the first turn. Thus expecting a much weaker counter-attack, and fighting on their land from the very beginning. 
quote:
Originally posted by joncnunn
It is important to note during any combat operation against the AI that it has no "gray zone", it has complete knowlege of any tile it's ever explored. But it doesn't stop and consider that by the time it's forces get what is currently underdefended, that area won't be underdefended. |
Sadly, this is true. Even with excess units, they tend to march them to get a small, barely defended city, instead of attacking directly. :/
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Melboz99
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Rockford, Illinois, USA
May 2000
time: 23:24
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Hey Vxma, you ever have a game go into the modern era on Sid?
Do you ever manage to keep a tech lead?
I had a blast taking a ship of 4 modern armor and 2 mech inf into my captured city in the middle of of Portugal. I'd send one of those over every turn for about 5-10 turns, they were off the continent by that time.
I also had about 5 MA armies in there, with 4 veteran MAs a piece.
I lost 3 or 4 MA to calvary though, but I was impressed at how 6 marines could hold a city on their own against over 10 calvary.
I just can't imagine playing against an enemy with hundreds of military units in a city. Are they all good units, or are most of them obsolete?
IIRC, Portugal had about 40 pikemen, 30 riflemen, and 30 calvary. So, they had over 100 miltiary units, but there were only like 4 or 5 per city.
Dan O.
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theDragon
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The Tundra of the Midwest.
Jan 2004
time: 05:24
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Wow, total score. Thanks alot guys, this kind of conversations is just what I was asking for. Personally, I am a major builder all the way up to Knights/Calvary, but as soon as I have a couple of boomboom sticks.. Its on.   
When invading I tend to, when attempting to cripple and obliterate an enemy nation, sack as many of their out lying cities as possible, esp those close to me. I then use them as forwarding bases to assualt the rest of the little cities, and bombard the big ones and strategic resources.
I got into this strategic rut after many wars being fought for capitals and core cities and losing most of my fighting potential to gain those cities. I now almost completely ignore the core cities with ground troops. I still bomb them with planes, but I always attempt to take two spearheads (see columns in war dictionary) and attack from two sides of the nation. I make my way capturing every single little city I can. By the time the AI can count his cities, he has to count again, and he is basiclly crippled and it is only a matter of time after that when the capital will fall.
I dont use artillery as much.. I was wondering if there as any use for them after Flight. With bombers taking the heat to enemy cities en masse, why invest in arty anymore?
Also, a question that has ate at my thought, is there any strategic reason to capture an enemy's capital anyway? (i.e. does it increase WW or do anything to extensively cripple the enemy other than just another city?) AND! whats the point of capturing the capital if another capital pops up the next turn?
Thanks for the posts guys! Thus far it has been extremely interesting and I hope the posts keep coming!
Last edited by theDragon on 18-02-2005 at 20:56
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UnOrthOdOx
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Hello....
Jun 2002
time: 22:24
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quote:
Originally posted by theDragon
I dont use artillery as much.. I was wondering if there as any use for them after Flight. With bombers taking the heat to enemy cities en masse, why invest in arty anymore? |
Typically I'll have 50+ by that point anyway, so further wouldn't neccessarily be needed. However, they are still usefull to move with your stacks as they cannot be shot down, for instance, and are great for weakening counter attacks
quote:
Also, a question that has ate at my thought, is there any strategic reason to capture an enemy's capital anyway? (i.e. does it increase WW or do anything to extensively cripple the enemy other than just another city?) AND! whats the point of capturing the capital if another capital pops up the next turn? |
Well, culure to some degree. Culture flipping is dependant on closeness to capitol among other things. In some instances it's good to raise the AI capitol if you are wanting to keep some cities without worrying about the flipping.
Killing AI production is another. By taking the capitol, you can mess up their ranks and production. Not to mention it's typically their best city.
Killing the AI army. The capitol is typically the most defended. Taking it early in a war ensures you've destroyed most their defense allot of the time.
Finally, if you're attacking with archers like I do allot of the time, it's the only city that won't autoraze, as it has culture. Then wait for the city it jumps to to gain culture and take it too, then sue for peace for 3 more cities...poof...AI down to 1 city and you got 5 new ones for the price of as little as 6 archers. 
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Melboz99
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Rockford, Illinois, USA
May 2000
time: 23:24
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quote:
[SIZE=1]
I dont use artillery as much.. I was wondering if there as any use for them after Flight. With bombers taking the heat to enemy cities en masse, why invest in arty anymore?
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I didn't use to use arty much either, but lately I have discovered it's awesome power.
Even in the ancient era, you can have bloodless battles (bloodless for you at least  )
Basically, all you need in the ancient era is:
1 Archer for every unit in his largest city.
4 cats for every unit in his largest city.
At least 2 spearmen for every city you plan to capture.
2 spearman to guard the stack
Now, here's why you need 4 cats for every unit in his largest city. Plan on missing his units 50% of the time. That leaves you with two hits per unit. If most of his units are regular, and usually they are, then that is all the hits those units will need to drop to one heath bar.
So, lets say you want to take a city with 4 spearman. Take at least 16 cats to the city, defended by 4 spearman and bring 4 archers to finish the job. (actually, it may be best to bring 6 just in case).
Then bombard the heck out of the city with the 16 cats. If all goes well, you should have about 8 hits. With those 8 hits you will have reduced every speaman down to one health bar. (red). Finish off the job by killing all the spearman with the archers. After the last archer takes the city, move two spearman into the city to defend it until you can move your cats safely inside.
Of course, I'm basing this off my experience on Warlord, so at higher diff levels you may want to adjust the quantities accordingly.
I fought a war with the Iroq in the ancient age. I started as soon as I had built about 20 cats, 8 archers, and 12 spearman. By the time I was in the middle ages, (maybe 40 turns) I had conqured about 2/3 of them, only loosing about 2 or three archers to their spearmen. I then bargained for peace, taking all the rest of thier cities as part of the deal. The only city they had left was their capitol, and I only lost 3 archers.
What I found was that
A) I didn't need that many archers.
B) I didn't really need that many cats
C) I needed more spearmen to defend.
That's how I based my above formula.
Once I made peace, I did some building, especially in the now vacant territory, and got engineering. Then I got Tzu's and upgraded all my archers to longbow and cats to trebs.
Within about 30-40 more turns the Koreans, the largest empire on the map were at about 1/3 the size, and had lost all their major cities including their capitol, and Leo's.
I on the other hand had only lost about another 2 or 3 Longbow to their pikemen.
Dan O.
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Modo44
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in western Poland
Jul 2004
time: 06:24
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quote:
Originally posted by theDragon
When invading I tend to, when attempting to cripple and obliterate an enemy nation, sack as many of their out lying cities as possible, esp those close to me. I then use them as forwarding bases to assualt the rest of the little cities, and bombard the big ones and strategic resources. |
One thing you are missing. Leaving their core intact will let them recover very quickly. Why hit the hand when you could cut off the head with just a bit more effort?
quote:
Originally posted by theDragon
I dont use artillery as much.. I was wondering if there as any use for them after Flight. With bombers taking the heat to enemy cities en masse, why invest in arty anymore? |
Bombers die too often. To lose fewer you need to send Fighters first, and losses will still be big. This means you need to be building them constantly. Artillery needs to be build only once, and is just as effective. It leaves the buildings in cities, which is a plus for me. After you have those 50, you are done and those cities can turn to other builds.
I use Bombers to destroy tile improvements in places I plan to leave unconquered. Since the AI mostly positions fighters where you bombed last turn, this can often be done without worrying abut being shot down. A secondary use is to kill off any enemy units that enter my territory. Most important - removing the pesky buggers that walk over Mountains, and could cause losses to my units.
quote:
Originally posted by theDragon
Also, a question that has ate at my thought, is there any strategic reason to capture an enemy's capital anyway? (i.e. does it increase WW or do anything to extensively cripple the enemy other than just another city?) AND! whats the point of capturing the capital if another capital pops up the next turn? |
At the beginning of the game, most other cities will get autorazed, because of zero culture. Later on the AI capital will most often host a bunch of Small Wonders, and perhaps even a Great Wonder or two. While early warfare seldom happens to me, I learned to count on the AI to produce wonders for my glory.
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vmxa1
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Oviedo, Fl
Nov 2001
time: 21:24
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Well the lower the level and the larger the map, the slower the tech pace. If you have a small number of civs in the game and are a low level, it will take some time to research techs, especially if the map is larger.
The also leads to running into a less robust civ. In the main, while it is true that having those cats is swell, I would rather have skipped the 4 cats per stack and had more attackers.
Cats and archer cost the same and you cannot kill any units with a cat, nor hold a city with it, but you can with archers.
So that city with 4 spears that is being attacked with 16 cats 4-6 archers and I guess some spears came along, could have been conquered sooner with say 10-12 archers.
It will take a long time to build those 16+6+2 units (24), twice as long as the 12 archers.
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Melboz99
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Rockford, Illinois, USA
May 2000
time: 23:24
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quote:
Originally posted by vmxa1
Well the lower the level and the larger the map, the slower the tech pace. If you have a small number of civs in the game and are a low level, it will take some time to research techs, especially if the map is larger.
The also leads to running into a less robust civ. In the main, while it is true that having those cats is swell, I would rather have skipped the 4 cats per stack and had more attackers.
Cats and archer cost the same and you cannot kill any units with a cat, nor hold a city with it, but you can with archers.
So that city with 4 spears that is being attacked with 16 cats 4-6 archers and I guess some spears came along, could have been conquered sooner with say 10-12 archers.
It will take a long time to build those 16+6+2 units (24), twice as long as the 12 archers. |
Vmxa, the problem with going with mainly archers and fewer cats is that archers die easily when attacking spearmen at full health.
So, I built 16 cats, but none of them ever were killed. In fact, I upgraded them to trebs, cannons, and artillery. Each upgrade cost about 15 gold per unit, one of the cheapest upgrades there is. So, for about 250 gold I then had 16 trebs, for another 250 gold I had 16 cannons. I think artillery cost 30 gold to upgrade, so about for about 500 gold I had 16 artillery.
At each stage of their upgrades I fought a war and won easily. I fought the Iroq with cats, the Koreans with Trebs, the Ottomans with Cannons and Atilllery, finished off the Koreans and Iroq with artillery.
Then end result was that building those 16 cats gave me artillery that I could use throughout the course of game and were upgraded cheaply.
I never lost a single arty. Can you say the same about Archers/Longbowman/Calvary?
I lost 2-3 during each war on a bad roll while attaking a spearman or pilkeman. How many would I have lost if I hadn't been using arty?
Dan O.
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vmxa1
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Oviedo, Fl
Nov 2001
time: 21:24
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Yes it is true that you can use them all through the game, bit it takes too long to build them. Yes you will lose some archers, that is why you brought along 2 or 3 times as many as defenders expected.
Now the reason we want to think about doing it that way is the time. In a std map you will need so much time to crank out those hypothetical 24 units, that the AI could have gain strenght and tech.
You want to end the war quickly, so spending time bombarding over and over will drag out the war and cause WW.
These are not concerns at lower levels as the AI will not be doing all that well and you have so many content citizens. If you are playing ay even Monarch level, it is not so easy.
The AI will gain better tech and units, have a production boost and can build units better. You have to get to a non WW governemnt or face WW.
Frankly I won't be building 12 archers, unless I have no resources. Same for those 16 cats. I will go with horses or swords. But if I did do it that way, I would expect to spread out and take down several less well defended cities, before going against one with 4 spears.
The ai will only have 4 spears in the capitol or one or 2 others. It is stupid and will send out its defenders to either attack me or aid the other cities I am putting under pressure. Now after I have dealt with those cities and the units out and about, it will have little left.
Truth is, I will probably have an army to deal with that last bastion with 4 spears. I will be very sad to not have manage one mgl while busting the whole empire. See I will be arriving with vets and elites.
So what I am saying is that what you say is true, but other considerations may come into play. The greatness of the game is that many strategies work, but some are less rewarding than others in a given situation.
The level and the map settings are critical to tactics and timing. So I am not presenting a case that says don't do it your way, but rather there are many factors and others need to be aware of them and adapt.
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16-02-2005 20:55
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