17-02-2005 08:30									#1
	Since -2 Research is such a harsh penalty Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

What sort of factin traits would compensate for it?

I was thinking +2 Planet +Morale and free doctrine mobility would go well with -2research, cause at least you can defend yourself easily against high-tech forces.

	17-02-2005 13:12									#2
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+2 economy and things are solved!

	17-02-2005 16:08									#3
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+2 probe. So that you can steal the techs you can't research yourself.

	17-02-2005 17:17									#4
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+2 morale so you can kill other factions without finding them better techs
Believers have also +25% bonus for believing... fanatism

	17-02-2005 17:36									#5
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+2 support so you can train and sent waves of perhaps inferior units to this Ivory Tower intellectuals when they deem you beneath their attention.

	22-02-2005 06:39									#6
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I'd say no to +economy, because it's simply making a negative and then cancelling it out. Changes to combat-related things like probe and morale and planet I think would let the faction be more unique in strategy.

	22-02-2005 08:43									#7
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+2 industry and NODRONE, 1 are more than enough.

	22-02-2005 10:59									#8
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Free net nodes and research hospitals in every base (without tech!).

Oh wait... that sounds like something you'd see on networknode. :P

	25-02-2005 17:33									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Chaos Theory +2 industry and NODRONE, 1 are more than enough.

Stress on "more than".

	18-03-2005 14:18									#10
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Maybe this sounds ridiculous, but a free former would also be nice, so you can start terraforming while you do not have the tech. See it as a converted unity gas miner or something.

Off course this must be added to something extra. Maybe starting tech = industrial base (for the ME SP helps out a little and armor 2 is available and paves the way for FM SE choice).

Also a +1 morale can be given on account of the fanaticism to defend the home country (and offense is the best defense)

Summarized my suggestion:
[-2 research]
+1 morale
free former at start
starting tech ind. base

anyone else?

	18-03-2005 17:04									#11
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Rather than +1 morale, why not miriam's fanaticism?
IndBase? I don't recall seeing anyone put the ME high on their priority list, although I agree on the Armor 2 point.

	18-03-2005 17:30									#12
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Irrelevent thread diversion: I'm something of a fan of giving bonus units as a means of faction balance. A free former is an excellant way to help along the believers or drones. Sometimes on a very small map I've given Morgan a couple of supply crawlers to help offset the support cost he incurs.

They mostly get eaten by worms though...

	24-03-2005 17:00									#13
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quote: Originally posted by #endgame Rather than +1 morale, why not miriam's fanaticism? IndBase? I don't recall seeing anyone put the ME high on their priority list, although I agree on the Armor 2 point.

The +1 morale works both ways, both offensive as well as defensive. Plus, IIRC the +25% fanaticism miriam has does not work against worms, the +1 morale will.
See it as a kind of average, +25% offense against human units (25% fanaticism) versus +12,5% offense against anything and +12,5% defense versus anything.

As for the ME well, I concur it is not the most useful SP, but if I can get it early I will probably try to get it (but I prefer the WP for obvious reasons).
I stated ind. base mainly for its armor 2.

IMHO the extra former is something quite useful, it can give you a definite turn advantage (until it is eaten by worms). I too like giving bonus units to balance out factions rather than giving them a free facility (that counts rather grave when hou have a hundred bases or so). The extra former can be that little something extra that gives you that extra edge in the beginning where the -2 science really hurts (when you have little bases and not the tech required for science buildings).

	25-03-2005 03:19									#14
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I would have no reason to play such a faction, except as a challenge. What perks do they get? +1 morale hardly defines a faction. Industrial Base as a starting tech doesn't mean much, since I'll research it in short order with any faction without a research penalty. A free former is nice, but not nearly as nice as having Centauri Ecology. Every faction in the game has some distinguishing advantages. This faction doesn't.

	25-03-2005 06:36									#15
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I noticed, Believers have usually slow start, but often in later game they can overwhelm other factions.

I think +25% attack bonus is a strong one when in vendetta. This faction is not definitely for a peacefull playing. I wonder why they are so close related to christianity. Was it very much intended by game creators?

	25-03-2005 06:54									#16
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A lot of religions have been violent at some stage in their existence. But regarding your question, I guess the creators wanted to point out that violence is not restricted to our nowaday fanatic believers of a certain religion.

	25-03-2005 06:58									#17
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christian fundamentalism? one of the most dangerous in our present world in my oppinion. The biggest danger is that many people do not wish to admit that, they just say about it "impossible".

Do we already deviate from the alpha centauri topic here?

	25-03-2005 07:03									#18
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Hey, you were the one asking the question.

What was the topic again?

	20-07-2005 08:29									#19
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Free Recreation Commons with every Base, powerfull and it makes sense if your a religious zealot what is the FIRST thing you build? Duuu a church, and the population goes their to hear the....

"THOUTH SHAL"

Remember the quote by Lal "The entire character of a base can be absorbed in a quick trip to the recr commons" He describes the very different styles of recreation the factions used, Casinos for Morgan, Parks for Gaians, Cathedrals for Belivers

	21-07-2005 02:50									#20
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I was lately wondering in attaching a nodrone, 1 to Fundy and a +1 talent to Green would make for more early game utility. Personally, I still believe the nodrone, 1 would be better suited to the Believers rather than the Drones, if mostly from a point of view of balance.

	21-07-2005 03:30									#21
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You can't attach NODRONE, 1 to any SE category. Police and talent are about it (effic affects b-drones and energy for psych, econ affects energy for psych).

	21-07-2005 03:54									#22
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I'm aware of that, but perhaps something can be done for any hypothetical SMACmod for Civ4. Greater flexibility of what can be altered in SE would be useful I'm sure.

	21-07-2005 04:23									#23
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Then why settle for NODRONE? Perhaps Fundamentalist could grant a phantom police unit, in the same way as the Self-Aware Colony. Maybe one unit per base could quell an additional drone. Perhaps drones are quelled only if you haven't discovered certain technologies such as Intellectual Integrity.

Hopefully, SE settings will be able to affect anything that any other aspect of the game can - SE categories, faction abilities, facilities, and so on. Having an appropriate SE category grant TALENT, 4, and having that stack properly with any other TALENT effects, would be very nice.

	21-07-2005 04:54									#24
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I was mostly thinking in terms of making the Fundy government situationally useful like Fundy was in Civ2, quelling all drones everywhere. I was having visions of Believers with high nutrient terraforming in Fundy/green/wealth going on a rampage.

	21-07-2005 06:26									#25
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Well, they can do that reasonably well already. Fundy quelling all drones would be ludicrously powerful, considering much of the strength of Police State is its ability to tackle drones. Hell, you could probably research better in Fundy/FM than in Demo/FM - no need to build rec commons, worry about pacifism, invest in psych, or fiddle with specialists. Don't model individual SE choices after entire Civ governments, since Fundy/FM doesn't exist in Civ.

	23-07-2005 12:13									#26
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Fundy is a great SE choice as it is, I reckon. It's just not a set'n'forget setting like Wealth. And a fairly brief switch to fundy for a builder faction probably won't hurt any more than the efficiency penalty of planned or PS, and can be of huge benefit.

Honestly, I don't really think -2 research is such a huge penalty as everyone makes out. The twenty-odd years without formers at the start is by far the worst part of it, IMHO - after that it's not terribly long before you stop even noticing it, if you beeline for your important techs and probe or trade yourself the others. You won't be an early tech leader (although Domai can catch up damn fast even without trade or theft), but a tech deficit is much more easily made up than an industrial, terraforming or infrastructural deficit. A -2 research faction that started with Centauri Eco would do just fine, I reckon.