18-02-2005 05:30									#1
	I knew stem cell research out pay off! Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

The BBC is reporting that a new "natural" process of womens' brest enlargement is now possible thanks to advances in stem cell research. The stem cells are used to make new fat cells in women's brest which replicate her natural brest cells. The new process will be safer then the current brest implants because implants can leak while the stem cells mimic a woman's natural brest cells and they should be next to impossible to tell if a woman has had the procedure or not.

I always knew stem cell research would make my life better.

	18-02-2005 05:40									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

what if they get outta control and create cancer?

	18-02-2005 05:52									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

What if what if.. read the news again. Bigger breasts. That's all you need to know. I applaud this new scientific breakthrough. More breast for everyone!

	18-02-2005 06:04									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

@Pekka

@stemcells

	18-02-2005 06:07									#5
	Suffering from ads?

If these things are indeed all but identical to the normal cells, won't sudden shifts in hormonal balance, e.g. pregnancy, sort of "reset the clock," causing the boobs to just shrink again eventually?

	18-02-2005 06:09									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

but they'd shrink to a larger size

It's like the reverse of lypo-suction only your body is making the fat

	18-02-2005 06:12									#7
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Elok If these things are indeed all but identical to the normal cells, won't sudden shifts in hormonal balance, e.g. pregnancy, sort of "reset the clock," causing the boobs to just shrink again eventually?

The number of fat cells is generally constant, but they expand or contract depending on how much stuff is in them. So they'd still be larger.

	18-02-2005 06:12									#8
	Remove this text

Bigger brests on women. God damn if 2005 isn't looking like a good year.

	18-02-2005 06:28									#9
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

If you say so. I'm still inclined to be suspicious of stem cells, and not just because of the embryo thing, which these don't violate anyway. Have we even identified what exactly it is that chemically differentiates a stem cell from a normal one, and what causes it to change and when? Until we do we certainly shouldn't be shoving the things into humans, except in cases of otherwise-fatal disease. And even then these would take a while to clear the FDA, so don't expect newer and better fake boobs anytime soon.

Mostly it's just that my life's experience has repeatedly taught me about the frequency of a free lunch, and the various risks associated with something that sounds too good to be true. They said much the same thing about those gel-packet implants when they came along and replaced whatever primitive thing they were implanting before, didn't they?

And then there are my aesthetic, social and other objections to fake breasts in general...what a demented obsession.

	18-02-2005 06:41									#10
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Every human came from stem cells. BTW these aren't fake; they are genetically identical.

	18-02-2005 07:05									#11
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Elok If you say so. I'm still inclined to be suspicious of stem cells, and not just because of the embryo thing, which these don't violate anyway.

Speaking of stem cells, did you hear the news that the embryonic lines used in the US research are contiminated? They needed to restart but can't, due to the restrictions.

quote: Originally posted by Elok Have we even identified what exactly it is that chemically differentiates a stem cell from a normal one, and what causes it to change and when?

No, but stem cells are not the same as cancer cells.

	18-02-2005 08:57									#12
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I know the cell lines are contaminated; it's irrelevant to the ethics of the problem. "Did you know that the government is preventing us from brutally sodomizing little boys with large metal objects for the sake of research that could save lives? You did? Well, did you know that what research we completed before they stopped us turned out to have procedural violations that skewed the results, and so we can't proceed with it without going back to the cold metal up the tiny keisters?" Bush's compromise was morally dubious but allowable from my perspective, being only flawed in principle. I don't care what could be done with the body, human life should not be taken without consent.

I know they aren't the same as cancer cells. I'm thinking along the lines of odd side effects, a tendency to "forget" what they were changed to after about ten years and turn back into fetal neurons or whatever, a subtle distinction between different kinds of stem cells we've failed to notice that will occasionally cause horrific autoimmune disorders in a small percentage of subjects for some insane reason, stuff like that. We need to know what we're working with and how it works, in great detail, before we apply it to human medicine.

	18-02-2005 09:04									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Hmm, let's see...

Use of inventon:

Paint: to paint dirty pictures in caves
books: to able to write dirty stories
Film: to be able to make dirty pictures
Internet: to sent both pictures and stories to one another
Stemcells: greater boobs

There's a connection there somewhere, just...can't...put my finger on it.

	18-02-2005 09:07									#14
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Nah, those who want to get larger breasts deserve to be test experiments.

	18-02-2005 09:16									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Elok "Did you know that the government is preventing us from brutally sodomizing little boys with large metal objects for the sake of research that could save lives?

Strawman

quote: Originally posted by Elok I don't care what could be done with the body, human life should not be taken without consent.

1. Do you know that all these extra embryoes will be flushed down the toilet anyway?

2. Whose consent?

	18-02-2005 09:19									#16
	Full PM-box? Change here!

The embryo's consent, which can't be taken, hence no dice.

I oppose IVF too. Ghastly practice, custom-manufacturing infants.

It's not a strawman, it's an analogy. I am pretty certain that stem-cells don't involve sodomizing children, despite the other ethical flaws.

	18-02-2005 09:56									#17
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia what if they get outta control and create cancer?

Have you ever heard of anyone getting fat cancer? Breast cancer isn't from the fat.

	18-02-2005 10:06									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Elok The embryo's consent, which can't be taken, hence no dice.

The embryo is not conscious, thus it is utterly meaningless to speak of its "consent." It's as silly as asking for a chair's consent before sitting down on it.

	18-02-2005 10:51									#19
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Have you ever heard of anyone getting fat cancer?

*cough*

	18-02-2005 10:53									#20
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

nd now cancer has gone contagious!!

	18-02-2005 12:29									#21
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: 1. Do you know that all these extra embryoes will be flushed down the toilet anyway?

Hey, that kid's just going to grow up a junkie on the streets/ that man's just a junkie on the street.

Why can't we do tests on him, to make his life valuable to society?

quote: 2. Whose consent?

The child's. After all, you aren't allowed to do medical research on children that may result in their death for the precise reason that the parents cannot offer consent, if such consent may result in the death of their child.

If a human embryo also is a child, than the same rule applies.

	18-02-2005 12:32									#22
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Hey, that kid's just going to grow up a junkie on the streets/ that man's just a junkie on the street. Why can't we do tests on him, to make his life valuable to society?

Ben, read the thread first. I was referring to all the extras from IVFs.

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi If a human embryo also is a child, than the same rule applies.

An embryo is not a child. A child got arms and legs and most importantly, shows sentience.

	18-02-2005 13:40									#23
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

OK folks - the Brits have a perfectly functional compromise on obtaining embryonic stem cells. First, only on surplus embryoes, i.e. those left after IV-F. Secondly, the couples involved must explicitly grant permission for the embroyoes to be used. Otherwise they are flushed down the sink.

Now here are the reasons this happens. You cannot freeze unfertilized eggs, at least the human variety, and hope to thaw them later on to undergo fertilization. If surplus eggs are produced, they are fertilized and frozen for subsequent attempts at pregnancy. Now you could insist only those eggs that are going to be implanted by fertilized. Two problems. The drugs for this are expensive, and if they don't work, the couple has to pay the entire $14-17,000 to start from scratch, instead of around four thousand to implant extra embryoes (my numbers could be off, I haven't checked prices in years.

Even if you feel confident in forcing that expense on them - unless you're willing to pay a special morality tax, you aren't - I guess it's easy to want to make other people spend substantial amounts of money to meet your moral requirements - - then you also are forcing the woman to increase her cancer risk. Didn't you know? I mean, before you ran your mouth with your moral platitudes, to you bother to check into the implications. The drugs increase the woman's cancer risk for life.

Now I have no problem with a woman making that choice, because she wants to have a child. It's her choice. But I have huge problems on someone forcing their choice on her, i.e. if you want to have a child because you must have IV-F, then you must meet my moral compass, which will cost you forty-fifty thousand dollars extra (assuming a 25% success rate) and will increase you risk of dying. I guess the headline "Fundamentalists opposed to freezing embryos for IV-F are Mommy killers" wouldn't go down too well, but that is de facto the result of this policy.

Now there are those, including the Catholic Church, opposed to IV-F totally. Fine, tell someone you cannot be a good -insert here- if you practice IV-F. They can choose to leave if they disagree. Do NOT try to force your interpretation on me. Moslems consider that life starts at the 100th day - or at least there has been a conservative Fatwa on the matter. Do you feel you have the right to impose your view on a Moslem. You do! Then don't complain, when you tear down the walls that interfere with you, if it turns out they can impose their morality on you. Slippery slope et al.

	18-02-2005 18:41									#24
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Meh. Nuts to IVF, it's not like the world is running out of people. If I'm unable to have kids and want them, I'll just adopt. The very idea of IVF is repulsive.

And we've had the discussion of what makes a person human before. There's no way to talk either side out of it, but briefly put for the sake of an effort, our human rights are not contingent upon ability. Once the being is genetically distinct from its parents, it is for all intents and purposes uniquely human, regardless of what it can or cannot do. Sez I.

	18-02-2005 18:53									#25
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

What a self centered little bastard. "I don't care if people want to have children & science can provide it; I don't like their moral choices".

	18-02-2005 18:57									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Oerdin, I think he says that he himself would not want it that way. I can't see any remarks on what other people should do. Where the only option is to give them freedom of choice, otherwise a person is being oppressive ie. taliban.

	18-02-2005 19:00									#27
	Tired of ads?

What a mod-tempting flamer.

And ethics ought to be a very clear consideration in any decision. "Personal ethics," not applied to others, are arbitrary and worthless; right and wrong might as well be opinions about ice cream flavors if nobody bothers to enforce them. Ethics have value only as codes of interpersonal conduct.

Edit: Whoops, sorry Pekka, I just sabotaged your defense of me.

Thing is, all of your arguments ignore the possibility of the humanity of the embryo/fetus/zygote. Human life is not to be left defenseless for the sake of individual freedoms.

	18-02-2005 19:03									#28
	Increase the size of your Attachments

The world has enough kids? That's your personal moral choice. Don't force it on other people.

	18-02-2005 19:45									#29
	Tired of ads?

What's the point of having morals if I can't force them on other people? That's why I keep trying to take over the world. Isn't that why you play civ?

	18-02-2005 20:14									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The world has enough kids? That's your personal moral choice. Don't force it on other people.

You missed his point - one, that the thing has rights, and that there is no compelling societal need to override those rights. The second argument is just a defense of the first, not a reason in and of itself.

(Not that I necessarily agree with the first.)