19-02-2005 08:45									#31
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by el freako That seems unlikely, one of the main reasons that the EU works is that no one nation can dominate it whereas in NAFTA or event FTZotA the US would easily be far more powerful than anyone else. Add to this most american's clinging to quaint 20th century ideas of the 'sovereignty' of nations and I think such a pooling of sovereignty is unlikely in the America's Europe has been on the forefront of developments in governmental systems for half a millenium and frankly I don't see our lead being overtaken any time soon.

You're incorrect in the first part. The United States is the 800 lb. gorilla of the area. When they don't like something it tends not to happen, such as Canada legalising pot. When they want something they tend to get it, such as when they needed assurances that our ports of entry would not be a backdoor to their security measures post 9/11.

At the same time, if a company in California wanted to employ me, I would have advantages due to NAFTA. If I wanted to order products from the US or Mexico, it is trivially easy to get them across the border. If I want to visit New York or Tia Juana, I could cross the border(s) with a drivers license for the last 60 years or more, now I need an ID from the Yanks that is easy enough for me to get.

In short, many of the advantages that the EU has recently made possible in Europe have been enjoyed by Americans (geographically speaking) for a very long time.

You are correct in the second part. What Europe is doing in surrendering sovereignty to a larger organization is at the forefront of development. However, the Americans (nationally speaking) did that already between the 1770s and the 1860s. Their union was largely accomplished by the end of the Civil War. Europe is just now catching up.

...or at least, this is another way of looking at it.

	19-02-2005 09:15									#32
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by BlackCat I can only find one solution to this problem, and that is to turn as many countries into democracies as possible - as far as I know, no democratic countries has ever gone into a war with another democratic country.

The United States and France fought an undeclared naval war in the 1790s.

The United States went to war with Great Britain in 1812.

The United States and Mexico fought in the 1840s.

I'll over look the U.S. versus itself in the 1860s. I'll also over look the Indians wars, because those were less democracies and more anarchies.

The United States invaded numerous democracies during the 19th and 20th Centuries, but these don't rise to the level of war.

In 1900, the United States and Great Britain almost went to war over Somoa, however, a taiphun hit the island and sank the Biritsh fleet (Germany was also [resent, three way fight, but they sank also).

The United States fought Nicaragua in the 1980s.

Do you see a pattern here?

If one considers parlimentary monarchies to be democracies, then WWI was the biggest war between democracies.

	19-02-2005 09:25									#33
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: The goal was to maintain superiority right? If we're going to form a closer union with someone then the obvious choice is people from the same cultural group as us. Its much more likely to work if all the parties have common bonds. If you think that white people should rule the earth forever, then sure. But what sort of madman believes that?

Stop being an idiot. I'm talking about the US maintaining its superiority. to do that it will need closer alliances and deeper relationships with like minded countries which it has strong cultural, religious, historical, and (yes) ethnic bonds. To expect unions between two totally different peoples is not very realistic. Between countries which have long histories of friendship and alliance with strong cultural ties it just might work.

	19-02-2005 09:43									#34
	Got spare money?

quote: Stop being an idiot. I'm talking about the US maintaining its superiority.

What value is there in that for everyone else? You guys suck. Even the British Empire was better.

Frankly, no one else wants to be bossed around by the US. Recent events have only increased this sentiment worldwide. This vestigial cold-warriorism is just comical.

quote: to do that it will need closer alliances and deeper relationships with like minded countries which it has strong cultural, religious, historical, and (yes) ethnic bonds. To expect unions between two totally different peoples is not very realistic.

Nonsense. That's just a racist attitude. You should be ashamed of yourself. Of whom do you speak? The American people? Last time I looked they were every colour under the sun and manifested as much differences between themselves as to the rest of humanity.

quote: Between countries which have long histories of friendship and alliance with strong cultural ties it just might work.

Or we could just forget about it. Globalization will eventually render such sentiments moot anyway. The world will not suddenly fall apart if white, English-speaking people do not effectively run it.

	19-02-2005 09:48									#35
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Agathon Nonsense. That's just a racist attitude.

No it's not. China and the West are rather alien to each other.

	19-02-2005 09:48									#36
	Suffering from ads?

On CNN tonight I saw just what this is about. Lou Dobbs and some cretin were moaning about China. Typical American Sinophobia. I don't care if the Chinese become predominant. It's going to make zero difference to me. If they try to boss us around, we'll do what we do when you lot do it. In other words politely ignore you.

	19-02-2005 09:52									#37
	Put an end to popups!

quote: No it's not. China and the West are rather alien to each other.

They are not. Ask my brother, he speaks fluent Mandarin and Cantonese. The Chinese are remarkably like the rest of humanity - except that they tend to work harder and give things funny names like "The Happy Go Lucky Dragon Shop". I've taught dozens of Chinese students. Guess what - they write bad papers and don't do the readings - just like all the other students.

Jeez. I've currently got a student from Ghana and another from the Congo - they are entirely normal people - just like others from "foreign" cultures.

I have as much in common with a Chinese person as I do with a Russian. Of course that's not as much as I have in common with a Brit or a Maori, but they aren't extraterrestrials.

	19-02-2005 09:55									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Agathon Of course that's not as much as I have in common with a Brit or a Maori, but they aren't extraterrestrials.

There are certain assumptions I share with other Americans. I don't have to try and figure out what they're think or explain myself to them. Europeans are slightly different from us. Africans are a little more different. The Chinese are the most different. That doesn't make them from outer space, but it does mean that they are alien to us.

	19-02-2005 11:55									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Maybe institutions, systems of government, and expectations about little things like individual rights also form differences among different peoples and result in some nations being able to more easily identify with one another than with others.

Still, I think we're all screwing the pooch if we do not chase after India. They are already the greatest democracy on Earth. They already speak English as a first language. They already are willing capitalists.

Why we (the West) do not aggressively court India baffles me.

	19-02-2005 12:14									#40
	Inflate your Upload Space

It also depends on how you define democracy (i.e. the myth about democracies and wars). The United States is a Republic, and due to the steady erosion of constitutional checks on the executive, i.e. Congress shall have the power to declare war, we now have an imperial presidency. Combine that with computerized gerrymandering of districts, you have a system that actually perverts the democratic intent of the founders and is closer to Putin's ideal of guided democracy.

Even more so have been the creation of a standing army since WW2, and the recent federalization of the National Guard. Now the President, as CIC, has substantial land forces that permit him to start hostilities without any revue until the next election. Our system of government right now is a threat to other nations, that combined with the idealogues who are in effective control of our federal government. This means that many countries are concerned, rightfully so, over the current hyperpower status of the US, and they will take appropriate means to rein it in.

Since the idealogues are also arrogant, which in combination with their rigid ideaology makes them stupid, it creates substantial opportunties. Look at China and it's industrialization at the expense of US Global companies. The Chinese company that is taking over IBM's PC manufacturing division is actually a de facto government enterprise when you check on the ownership. Airbus, Deutche Post (airfreigth), Toyota, Eurocopter, Taiwanese motherboards, Asian flat panel manufacturing, all show that practical government intervention, done correctly, can radically favor your industries and the wealth of your country over other's. Neither party has shown that kind of leadership in the United States for an extended period of time, and this country will pay a very harsh price in the middle and working classes for the failure of it's leadership.

	19-02-2005 12:19									#41
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

This thread makes me despair.... i've known this was coming for many years.... seeing it all spelled out so clearly by so many posters SOMEHOW makes me hate Bush even more .

	19-02-2005 12:25									#42
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Don't despair too much. No way that the US will ever sink to the irrelevance of most former Euro powers.

You just won't run the whole game. Is that so bad?

	19-02-2005 12:42									#43
	Increase Your PM Length

Competition can be a good thing.

	19-02-2005 13:00									#44
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell Even God couldn't bring us down now. The CIA has said its say; from this point we will be unstoppable.

guys, a stopped clock is correct twice a day.

	19-02-2005 13:19									#45
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: There are certain assumptions I share with other Americans. I don't have to try and figure out what they're think or explain myself to them. Europeans are slightly different from us. Africans are a little more different. The Chinese are the most different. That doesn't make them from outer space, but it does mean that they are alien to us.

I take it that you don't think this gives you and yours the right to rule the rest of humanity.

	19-02-2005 13:20									#46
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Combine that with computerized gerrymandering of districts, you have a system that actually perverts the democratic intent of the founders and is closer to Putin's ideal of guided democracy.

I wouldn't be so hard on Putin. He's trying to deal with some of the most corrupt people on earth. Yeltsin has a lot to answer for.

	19-02-2005 13:31									#47
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

We don't have corruption here in the United States - we have access for political contributions.

	19-02-2005 13:32									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I'll give the US one thing, corruption there has nothing on the Russian oligarchs.

	19-02-2005 13:40									#49
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Agathon I take it that you don't think this gives you and yours the right to rule the rest of humanity.

We are not trying to rule the rest of humanity but we are trying to coordinate efforts with like minded people in order to maximize our voice.

	19-02-2005 13:42									#50
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: We are not trying to rule the rest of humanity but we are trying to coordinate efforts with like minded people in order to maximize our voice.

In practice it's closer to what I said. Protecting the "national interest" and all that other crypto-fascist nonsense.

	19-02-2005 13:44									#51
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Protecting the "national interest" and all that other crypto-fascist nonsense.

Like every other country on Earth (we just come out and say it).

	19-02-2005 13:53									#52
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Like every other country on Earth (we just come out and say it).

The problem is that 99% of the time the "national interest" is not the interest of the nation, but of a certain minority of individuals.

The bigger problem is that acting in this way just causes conflicts and trouble. You'd think that people would have learned by now.

	19-02-2005 13:53									#53
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The goal was to maintain superiority right? If we're going to form a closer union with someone then the obvious choice is people from the same cultural group as us. Its much more likely to work if all the parties have common bonds.

Maintain superiority? Why? And over who, in particlular?

	19-02-2005 13:57									#54
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Look at the Haliburton contracts and our vice-President. I know we aren't as bad the the oligarchs, but is the USA really that far away?

	19-02-2005 14:00									#55
	Put an end to popups!

It's a fair way off. The courts aren't obviously bought yet.

	19-02-2005 14:07									#56
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Excuse me? Federal judges are flown to fancy resorts for workshops that show how zoning and environmental laws are "taking" and violate property rights. How now you rights to a class action suite have been severly limited due to the new law - see the thread on that one. How the US Chamber of Commerce is heavily pushing judicial candidates, and how partisan elections to stack courts with conservative candidates hostile to individual rights are becoming the norm. I will grant your point. The courts aren't obviously bought yet, but it's not paticularly subtle, either.

	19-02-2005 14:13									#57
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: how zoning and environmental laws are "taking" and violate property rights.

Well realistically they are. Environmental wetlands laws (and the like) are horrible for taking land and offering no compensation for those that already owned it and now don't have an asset anymore. The government should be forced to compensate.

With zoning, the government, at least has to allow some provisions for those engaged in prior use before the zoning came through.

quote: The bigger problem is that acting in this way just causes conflicts and trouble.

And sometimes that can be good. It just depends.

	19-02-2005 14:17									#58
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither You're incorrect in the first part. The United States is the 800 lb. gorilla of the area. When they don't like something it tends not to happen, such as Canada legalising pot. When they want something they tend to get it, such as when they needed assurances that our ports of entry would not be a backdoor to their security measures post 9/11.

You sort of make my point for me
If nothing can be accomplished without the US's approval then what you have is not a pooling of sovereignty by nations but the surrender of sovereignty by weaker nations to more powerful ones - the name for that is hegemony.
Hegemony relies on coercion, the hegemon gets what they want either through the application of force or through buying others off with resources - as such this system of international relations is similar to monarchy and as the strength of the hegemon is reliant on their relative power the system is unstable in the long run.
Europe's pooling of sovereignty relies on persuasion, changing the views of your partners is harder and takes more time than coercion (and it requires the buildup of trust), but the effect is far more durable as it does not require the constant application of power or bribery. This system is like the more representative governments that sprang up in western europe in the 17th and 18th centuries.

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither You are correct in the second part. What Europe is doing in surrendering sovereignty to a larger organization is at the forefront of development. However, the Americans (nationally speaking) did that already between the 1770s and the 1860s. Their union was largely accomplished by the end of the Civil War. Europe is just now catching up. ...or at least, this is another way of looking at it.

I would say that the coming-together of the US states in the late 18th & early 19th century was more akin to other states that came together under the idea of nationalism - like my own Britian did in 1603-1707 or France after the hundred years war and Germany and Italy during the 19th century.

I believe the current coming-together is different as it is not based on nationalism but on cooperation, and thus represents something new in systems of international governance.

	19-02-2005 14:19									#59
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Imran - that's not the issue I'm talking about here. It's the vacations paid for by the plaintiffs groups with pending cases. That's the issue. It walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and craps like a duck. It is bribery, just we are more sophisticated about it.

	19-02-2005 14:53									#60
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: You're incorrect in the first part. The United States is the 800 lb. gorilla of the area. When they don't like something it tends not to happen, such as Canada legalising pot. When they want something they tend to get it, such as when they needed assurances that our ports of entry would not be a backdoor to their security measures post 9/11.

Nope.

Witness New Zealand's anti-nuclear laws. The Americans whined and threatened about that.

Our response: "stick your nuclear weapons up your arse".

Canada just doesn't have the balls.