22-02-2005 18:43									#91
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Well, the early Greek city states were 'democratic' because the citizens were allowed to vote.


Of course who were (and who could become) citizens was limited, but there wasn't much in the way of voting in the Achaemenid Empire.

Democracy can be a constitutional monarchy style of democracy (as in the United Kingdom) or a republican style (as in the United States) . It can also go through many stages as the franchise is increased and extended to cover more than just the equivalent of the male rural or urban gentry, or householders with properties of a certain size or value.

	23-02-2005 00:41									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo I think the Senate should be PR (with delegations proportional to the population), and the House FPTP as it currently is (but with nonpartisan redistricting, etc.).

But you would have to write a whole new constitution because the curent one says the 2 seats-per state part cannot be ammended, if I remember correctly.

	23-02-2005 02:44									#93
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While This thread is on the topic, if we write a new constitution what should be in it? Here are my ideas, basically I want to combine some aspects of parlimentary and presidential systems:

1. A divided executive. A president elected by popular vote for a 4 year term who is the Comander-in-chief, top diplomat, and can veto legislation (including a limited line-item veto on budget bills). And a prime minister and associated cabinet, appointed by the Senate, which heads the federal beauracracy, can dissolve the Senate, and call senatorial elections.

2. House stays the same, but with constitutional checks against gerrymandering. Senate filled by proportional representation, with elections every 4 years unless an election is called by the Prime Minister. Congress can overturn presidential veto by 2/3 majority. House can overturn legislatinve decisions of the Cabinet by majority vote.

3. Judicial review preserved. Supreme Court justices and Federal judges are nominated by the President and confimed by the Senate, serve 15 year terms.

4. Federal structured is mostly preserved as is, except for elections, which are now done by the federal government.

5. Amendments are proposed by Congress, must pass both houses with a 2/3 vote, which then procceeds to a popular referendum which requires a 2/3 majority to pass.

	23-02-2005 03:38									#94
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quote: No, New Zealand doesn't have an auto pact.

You reckon US politicians would go against big business?

Who are you sir?

	23-02-2005 03:53									#95
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quote: Originally posted by alva Sadam's regime could hardly be called the standard in today's world.

Neither was those countries mentioned as examples of demowars in their time.

	23-02-2005 04:59									#96
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither The Yanks came together for cooperation as well. It was easy for them, sharing the same language and many other things, but there were differences between New England and Sourthern cultures. The 'one nation, damn all else' came later, didn't it?

US states were never fully independent sovereign units. unlike European kingdomes made into- yes, north and south were different, just as England as Scotland were different, or the north of France and the South of France were different, Spain was an amalgam of different kingdoms with all sorts of differences, ditto Italy in North and south. I don;t see how the Civil war in the US anbd the defeat by the Central government of smaller subunits differs from a lot of Centraling movements in Europe centuries before, heck, those smaller European mini states had much longer histories of eminity than the short lived US states had back in 1860.

No, the forming of the EU is fundamentally different from the creation of a United States.

	23-02-2005 14:04									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon You reckon US politicians would go against big business? Who are you sir?

Thay already do over lumber.

The US home building industry is quite important. Yet a few good old boys with trees on their land have managed to get the adminsitration(s; 's since this dates back through Clinton and into Bush Sr.) to slap tariffs on Canadian lumber to drive up the price of wood in the US. This in turn drives up the price of homes for anyone shopping for one.

Homes are big business in the US. So is the lumber industry, but not as big as all those involved in building.

	23-02-2005 14:10									#98
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quote: Originally posted by GePap US states were never fully independent sovereign units. unlike European kingdomes made into- yes, north and south were different, just as England as Scotland were different, or the north of France and the South of France were different, Spain was an amalgam of different kingdoms with all sorts of differences, ditto Italy in North and south. I don;t see how the Civil war in the US anbd the defeat by the Central government of smaller subunits differs from a lot of Centraling movements in Europe centuries before, heck, those smaller European mini states had much longer histories of eminity than the short lived US states had back in 1860. No, the forming of the EU is fundamentally different from the creation of a United States.

He was saying that the formation of the US was like that of the nation states of Europe. I don't think it was.

In fact, to this day you find decentralised power in the US (and Canada thanks to the American example) totally unlike anything you will find in Europe.

	23-02-2005 16:06									#99
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Please, please send us 30,000,000 Democrats. Actually I would hope for a mix of Democrats and moderates. That would totally change the election dynamics in the US, and castrate the Neocons. Then we can all fuss about Gun Control and Gay Marraige.

	23-02-2005 22:39									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Odin But you would have to write a whole new constitution because the curent one says the 2 seats-per state part cannot be ammended, if I remember correctly.

I can live with that. Anyway, I'd get rid of FPTP also. Let members of the House be elected proportionally at large within each state.

	23-02-2005 22:45									#101
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither He was saying that the formation of the US was like that of the nation states of Europe. I don't think it was.

What I said was:

quote: Originally posted by el freako I would say that the coming-together of the US states in the late 18th & early 19th century was more akin to other states that came together under the idea of nationalism

Which means that the formation of the US was more like the building of a nation-state than the european experiences of nation-building but less like what is currently happening in europe.

The US experience was different because it also counted more on an ideal than the nation-building experiences of europe, but what is happening in europe today relies on a set of ideas far more than the US did so the US could be viewed as a sort of 'halfway house' to the shared sovereignty that the EU is embarking on but it is not the same thing.

	23-02-2005 23:49									#102
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quote: Originally posted by shawnmmcc Please, please send us 30,000,000 Democrats. Actually I would hope for a mix of Democrats and moderates. That would totally change the election dynamics in the US, and castrate the Neocons. Then we can all fuss about Gun Control and Gay Marraige.

No, please send 30 million socialists, greens, and syndicalists.

	23-02-2005 23:59									#103
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Canadian Greens are ex-Conservatives with kooky ideas.