19-02-2005 20:51									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Proteus_MST With Russia conquered probably not even the USA would have been able to turn the tide of war in europe.

How would Germany conquer USSR? Plans were made to move back to the Urals even after Moscow fell. Napoleon took Moscow once, too. He end up losing everything.

	19-02-2005 21:00									#32
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The Soviets said themselves the government was on the verge of collapse. If the Germans had been less anti-slavic and more anti-communist then likely Ukrainians, Belorusians, and even former White Russian soldiers would have welcomed them as liberators from the communists instead of invaders. Instead they acted like *****es and pissed everyone off so they sided with Stalin.

	19-02-2005 21:02									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger How would Germany conquer USSR? Plans were made to move back to the Urals even after Moscow fell. Napoleon took Moscow once, too. He end up losing everything.

The real advantage the germans had over the USSR (and Napoleon ) was their strong (and Hi Tech) airforce.

If we consider the hypothetical case that the Afrikakorps would have been used in Russia instead of Africa (and it contained a lot of the most modern tanks the germans had)
IMHO it would have given the germans an edge over Russia, as germany would have been able to strafe the russian supply lines and probably also bombard their factories which produced the feared russian tanks (like the T-34 or the KV-1)

	19-02-2005 21:05									#34
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I doubt the Afrika Corp would have made a difference. It was a small unit. Rommel wasn't more brilliant than Guderian, who was on the Eastern Front.

As for the Luftwaffe, it was too spread out to be an effective interdiction force.

	19-02-2005 21:12									#35
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I doubt the Afrika Corp would have made a difference. It was a small unit. Rommel wasn't more brilliant than Guderian, who was on the Eastern Front.

And Manstein.

	19-02-2005 21:26									#36
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On one hand the combination of England surviving the Battle of Britian then stopping Rommel at El Alamein showed that Germany could be stopped. Prior to these events, the German war machine looked pretty unstoppable. However, this morale building victories really on provides the opportunity for the allies to stay in the fight.

I would say that if Japan does not attack Pearl Harbor, Germany doesn't sink US shipping and also does not go to war with America, it's possible that Germany could have won -- especially if some kind of forced peace with England was achieved.

The only chance for Germany to beat Russia would have been two free hands to fight Russia straight up. Once Russia received support for the US/UK, it just seems impossible that Russia would lose -- even if they had lost Moscow, Leningrad and Stalingrad. Remember, they had moved much of their industry to the Urals to continue the fight.

	19-02-2005 21:31									#37
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Germany committed 90% of its forces against the Soviets. I don't think another 10% would have made the difference if the USSR was being propped up. It wasn't the allies military contributions that helped bring down the Germans, but the fact they supplied the Soviets. If it was just a straight up fight between the West and Germany, we'd be speaking German today.

	19-02-2005 21:31									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner I would say that if Japan does not attack Pearl Harbor, Germany doesn't sink US shipping and also does not go to war with America, it's possible that Germany could have won

That is another historically impossible scenario. Japan would attack the US, that's just a question of when.

	19-02-2005 21:45									#39
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The Nazi's were, well, Nazis. So they couldn't very well be expected to behave like normal invaders so that the Russians would like them. They came into the Soviet Union to loot, pillage, kill the Jews and erradicate Communism. I doubt they could have done much to make themselves popular without ceasing to be Nazi's.

	19-02-2005 21:49									#40
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It's all a matter of production base and logistics. If enough countries gang up on you, no matter who you are, you don't win. Heck, even the U.S. of today wouldn't win, if the rest of the world ganged up on them (in a non-NBC scenario, that is).

Asmodean

	19-02-2005 21:51									#41
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Stalingrad or Kursk... can't decide. Also, the Italians were an Albatross around Germany's neck. What would have happened had Italy been competent? Germany wouldn't have had to waste resources in Afica and the Balkans.

BTW, some head Nazis were proposing that the Reich should treat some of the conquered peoples (Ukranians, White Russians) with dignity in order to gain their support. Hitler overruled them.

	19-02-2005 22:22									#42
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quote: Originally posted by korn469 So my question is this, at what point does WW2 reach a tipping point where even a sudden ahistorical string of German military victories only slow down the allied advance and eventual victory instead of turning the tide of war in Germany's favor?

I'd say the probability of defeat became 1 when Hitler started overruling his generals with things like the No-Strategic-Retreat-for-Wintering policy.

	19-02-2005 23:23									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The Soviets said themselves the government was on the verge of collapse. If the Germans had been less anti-slavic and more anti-communist then likely Ukrainians, Belorusians, and even former White Russian soldiers would have welcomed them as liberators from the communists instead of invaders. Instead they acted like *****es and pissed everyone off so they sided with Stalin.

YeaH, but after all being *****es was what the Nazis were all about. What you're proposing is sorta like saying that if Lions didn't eat Wilderbeasts they'd have Wilderbeast support. It just ain't natural.

	19-02-2005 23:42									#44
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Dec. 8, 1941, when Germany declared war on the U.S. it was all over but for the cleaning up.

Indeed. A move made all the more stupid by the fact that the US may not have joined teh European war for a while otherwise (not that they actually started doing a lot immediately anyways, but...).

	20-02-2005 00:10									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman It was Kursk which really tore the heart out of the Wehrmacht.

I believe you have it. After Kursk, the Wehrmacht did not have the ability to match the allies growing firepower. Kursk made it just a matter of time.

	20-02-2005 00:33									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger That is another historically impossible scenario. Japan would attack the US, that's just a question of when.

Can't disagree with that.

	20-02-2005 00:54									#47
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when they the U.K. declared war on them.

duh'.

People overrate the germans success. Sure they can beat up on small countries like Poland. But when faced with real countries such as England. They had no chance at all. Sure they had initial success against England. But it was obvious they had no chance of conquering them.

Germany was doomed as soon as Hitler took power. It was impossible for them to win the war the way Hitler wanted to do it.

	20-02-2005 00:56									#48
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The best defender the Brits had was the channel.

Sure, the air force was decent -- at least the Spitfires and Hurricanes. But the Germans could match those planes with the ME-109 and pilots of equivilant skill.

If you connect England to the main continent and disconnect France -- it's France that survives the German attack and England falls to the German 1940 invasion.

	20-02-2005 01:05									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner The best defender the Brits had was the channel. Sure, the air force was decent -- at least the Spitfires and Hurricanes. But the Germans could match those planes with the ME-109 and pilots of equivilant skill. If you connect England to the main continent and disconnect France -- it's France that survives the German attack and England falls to the German 1940 invasion.

I won't dispute that.

But the channel is there. That's what shaped England into the country it is today. So we have to include it into the argument.

	20-02-2005 02:36									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner If you connect England to the main continent and disconnect France -- it's France that survives the German attack and England falls to the German 1940 invasion.

Yeah, but then Wellington would have nearly conquered the continent of Europe save for Napoleon's tenacious opposition eventually bringing him to bay. Meanwhile, and much much worse, the Spanish assume the position of the Scottish, meaning that the entire latin American community would speak Scottish, not Spanish. Can you possibly imagine the utter wrongness of that? Imagine the "Macarena" sung with a thick Scottish brogue.....OCK! MACKARRRENA! Imagine "La Vida Loco", "Felice Navidad" or "Des Colores" accompanied by bagpipes.

No, whatever you do, do not switch the positions of France and England.

	20-02-2005 02:47									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Meanwhile, and much much worse, the Spanish assume the position of the Scottish, meaning that the entire latin American community would speak Scottish, not Spanish. Can you possibly imagine the utter wrongness of that? Imagine the "Macarena" sung with a thick Scottish brogue.....OCK! MACKARRRENA! Imagine "La Vida Loco", or "Des Colores" accompanied by bagpipes. No, whatever you do, do not switch the positions of France and England.

	20-02-2005 03:02									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley Trying to conquer the world never works, especially not in the long run; the war was lost when it begun.

I've conquered world in EU2!!

	20-02-2005 03:04									#54
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quote: Originally posted by techumseh The Nazi's were, well, Nazis. So they couldn't very well be expected to behave like normal invaders so that the Russians would like them. They came into the Soviet Union to loot, pillage, kill the Jews and erradicate Communism. I doubt they could have done much to make themselves popular without ceasing to be Nazi's.

Many disliked communism... Many disliked Jews...
And many (Latvians, Ukrainians, Lithuanians) actually supported Germans.

	20-02-2005 04:29									#55
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And the Germans did encourage collaboration. Some Ukrainian and Baltic citizens actively participated in the massacre of the Jews. And the Germans formed SS units from the fascist elements amoung these populations as well.

But the basic nature of the invasion didn't and couldn't change.

	20-02-2005 08:06									#56
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Battle of Britain. When Britain held firm the Allies had a nearby base of operations. If Britain had capitulated Vichy-style Germany would've remained unopposed in the West and in Africa, and probably would've secured rights to ME oil through Britain.

Then maybe Germany could've fought the Soviets to a standstill and redrawn the border somewhere near the Don or Volga. WW2 would be over, with Germany the victor in Europe. The US would concentrate on Japan and emerge the victor in the Pacific.

Then the Cold War would be between Germany and the US-Britain, with the Soviets playing catch-up. At some point they would form an alliance of convenience against Germany and WW3 would play out with results similar to WW2.

	20-02-2005 09:48									#57
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Dec. 8, 1941, when Germany declared war on the U.S. it was all over but for the cleaning up.

	20-02-2005 10:36									#58
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I agree with Trip. The war seems to have been won with production facilities, more than anything else.

	20-02-2005 10:43									#59
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The US just had too many IPCs... they need to fix that in the next edition

	20-02-2005 10:56									#60
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Yeah, can't have things imbalanced, makes for bad gameplay.