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amitourlo
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The attached file is presented now a bit further
(I'm sorry  ) and is still called economy.doc. (I just cut the first line)
It presents my ideas with pictures that is why I prefer not to develop it here.
So download it.
Last edited by amitourlo on 22-02-2005 at 18:03
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Trifna
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of anchovies
Jul 2001
time: 13:23
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amitourlo, there is some interesting things in there, should it be looked with cIV in mind or in itself. But... how can this be included in a game played by kids and the global public?...
Do you see a way to incorporate these things in a simple way fitting to a general audience?
Last edited by Trifna on 21-02-2005 at 03:54
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Max Sinister
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I read it and found it interesting (maybe a bit too detailed - how far does it matter whether I build my city on sandstone or granite?), but I have one question: What is the Maslow pyramid? I think I heard that term somewhere, but can't tell what it is...
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amitourlo
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To answer to people, who thinks my system is too detailed, I would say that the level of detail is adjustable as I explain it in my document.
You can either say
Housing-->Underground exploitation-->Stones or you can add a level and distinguish the different kinds of stones (granite, clay, simple stone...).
And it can have a cultural interest  to know what is the material used for you house. Wood is often used in artic areas or equatorial areas, concrete in modern society, granite in medieval cities... In order to establish the offer and supply for each city and for each resource in the most detailed system it is essential to know what kind of material is used for the buildings. With the simplified system only, it is naturally far less important.
To anwer to people, who thinks it is relative imposible to incoporate this system in the game, I think it is maybe not as so hard as developping an AI because lots of my suggests are mathematical. :
"Rien ne se crée, rien ne se perd, tout se transforme" in other words nothing can be created, nothing can be losed, all things are transformed.
I will think about it a little more to perform my answer and do anoteher post.
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amitourlo
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here is a short example in Excel that shows how it would be possible to incorporate the system.
Not so complicated. I spent only 1 hour to do it, so if you want to optimize it, don't hesitate.
Read above all the comments, particularly the comment about shortage.
HERE IS THE EXCEL DOCUMENT TO DOWNLOAD
 Attachment: terrain.xls
This has been downloaded 5 time(s).
Last edited by amitourlo on 25-02-2005 at 15:19
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amitourlo
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HERE IS THE MAIN FILE TO DOWNLOAD
 Attachment: economy.doc
This has been downloaded 11 time(s).
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Max Sinister
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Yes, now I remember the Maslow pyramid. Now there's the question how to represent it... it's good to describe individuals, but we're talking about masses of people which can't be all simulated...
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amitourlo
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I will take an example with a 4 level 2 dimensional (an equilateral triangle of side=a ) pyramid.
The first level is represented by the fact that people can have resources corresponding to their needs (food, clothes, manufactured goods,...).
The second level corresponds to the family the health and the activity of the citizen. (have a "nice" job, plenty of children, health...)
The third level corresponds to the membership, culture, sport, spare time group activities....
The fourth level corresponds to the self development, education, art, creativity, spare time lonesome activities.
I suppose that each level is represented by the same height h on the pyramid.
see the picture below
The surface of each level (mathematical formula) is:
for the first degree of the pyramid:
S1=(2*a-2*d)*h/2
with a, a side of the quilateral triangle, and d=sqrt(a²/16-h²), h the height of a level.
You can evaluate each surface, you will have:
S1=43.7% of the total surface of the triangle
S2=31.2% of the total surface of the triangle
S3=18.8% of the total surface of the triangle
S4=6.3% of the total surface of the triangle
So, you have just to determine for each citizen what is the number of levels he can reach.
For example, with such a model, if each citizen has the resources corresponding to its needs (level 1 of the pyramid completed), "only" 43.7% of your population will be happy.
If you manage to complete the level 2, 31.2 %+43,7%=74.9% of you population will be happy (this is just an example, I could have made it else by different operations)
If you succeed in the third level, 93.7% of your population will be happy....
But 2 things:
The first one is that you will never complete the first level for each citizen. (It would be so wonderfull) Consequently, you won't be able to reach 43.7% but a part of that (depending on your success in trade... to get resources). For example, if only 80% of them can reach this level, 35% could become happy thanks to the first level.
The second one is that this little model is based on a fixed height of each level. It would be interessant to modify it in order to change the percentages for each level. In fact, you can choose the percentages that you want. I just take this example beacause it is mathematical.You can take another law of your choice.
Difficulties to define happiness
It is really a philosophical issue to define happiness buts it seems to depend on big factors like governments, family(births, deaths...), health (diseases, wars...) , money (job,...), spare time activities (buildings (colosseum, stadium...), ...).
For example, wars can affect the first level (difficulties to get a resource), the second level (you father dies), the third level (you must go to war instead of watching TV)...
Overpopulation is not obligatory a factor of calamity?. to be rethink...
So if 75% of your population is happy, is that enough?
There is no answer to this question. In fact the only changes will be that there will be more strikes, more corruption, less births... So you will lose lots of money if you don't pay attention to the happiness of your citizens but 100% of hapiness is impossible.
What is your goal as leader of your civilization? The hapiness of your citizens or destroy the others?
That is a private question.
 Attachment: maslow.jpg
This has been downloaded 81 time(s).
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amitourlo
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I think that finding the good method for managing resources is fundamental.
Indeed, each living being (animal, human being, plant...) passes its time to manage resource in order to live.
Even for a plant, the system is universal:
1) Find the resource (eg:the rain for a plant)
2) Transport the resource (eg:the roots of a plant)
3) Stock the resource (eg:the foliage)
4) Transformation (Manufacturing of the resource) (eg:chimical reaction)
5) Consume the resource
So, as leader of a civilization, it is absolutely normal to pass time to manage you resource! It seems to be more boring than to go to war but it is the same. Each type of unit can be considered as a resource. When you go to war, what are you doing ?
--> You manage your units (you "find" them (produce), you "transport" them, you "stock" them before fighting your ennemy, you can "transform" them (veteran...) and you can "consume" them (death of your unit, dismantel...).
So, managing an army is like managing a resource, especially if munitions and weapons are incorporated in the game. Civilization is a managment game. It is certainly more pleasant (the fascinating of power is so high) to manage an army rather than other resources but without other resources you cannot get a solid army.
That is why a good resource system is obligatory and why I write my system, which is really not so complicated.
.Just see and understand my excel tabular (the terrain.zip attachment) and you will see that the parameters (micromanaging) which can be adjusted (rate of exploitation, rate of manufacturation) in my system are no more complicated than the parameters of Civ 3 .(Specialists, positionning of the citizens on terrains, improvments of terrains). Furthermore, while for Civ 3, you had to scan your city one by one to optimize your citizens because the system was not globalized, I propose to regroup all parameters in only one tabular and the adjustable parameters can also been automatically calculated. (see the case shortage in the tabular). My system is certainly more detailed but not obligatory more complicated
Last edited by amitourlo on 25-02-2005 at 15:20
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Trifna
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of anchovies
Jul 2001
time: 13:23
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Ah... now I see what you're up to and get an idea of how you want that.
But still, it is a concept and not HOW the concept would be applied simply. Also, about "management", I agree that all is management but there are different kinds of managements and not all are fun to each person.
Let's try to find a way how Maslow could be brought here and bring something...
Let's say, as a first draft for a model, such a model would consider (to be considered:):
You have a few stages of what can be asked by people. If they have "stage 1", they will ask for certain things. If they have "stage 2", they will make different requests and their acceptance of certain things (like lacking food)wont be the same. For each "stage", they will not give the same result neither. Don't expect people which don't bother about more than food to bother for fluffy things as "how geometry works" (so no science bonus in this society). Of course, this effects happiness and unrest.
Now, you want ressources into this. Let's not simplify the model yet, so we can discuss the system itself. So basically, let's say (the model's draft:):
1- A society is 25% in level 1, 50% in level 2, 15% in level 3 and 10% level 4, then it'd demand 25% of lvl1 needs, 50% lvl 2 needs, etc.
2- Each society sees the demand changing when people (1) get used to what they previously had, (2) see a possibility to get more. Opposite also true (get used to have less, see a possibility they might get less and turn afraid/conservative).
3- The actual ressources: food, steel, whattever... the higher the lvl of a demand, the higher the cost / citizen (they wont eat only what is "more productive", houses with no conveniences wont do anymore, higher luxury demand).
So, does this draft fit your idea? You see, this is not as raw analysis and theoric things to be put in. It needs to be modelized, and especially simplified from its raw analysis in the case of a game (especially if it's not only for a few passionated). WHat I showed above is still not simplified, only grossly modelized.
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amitourlo
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NOT FINISHED
I agree with the facts that:
- citizens want always more than they have (if something better exists)
- the cost varies in accordance with the demand and supply. It determines the scarcety, the luxury of a resource.
but I disagree with the fact that
- demand changes when people get used to what they previously had.
Indeed, this is right only if other products are susceptible to act as substitutes and bring something better. The demand will then be divided between the 2 concurrent products.
- they wont eat only what is more productive.
During centuries people have eaten the same cereals because they didn't know other ones. They were on earth only to prepare their live in the beyond. The food was not their first priority. To avoid famines, they produced only the most productive products
I recognise that due to rare resources (luxury resources), resources cannot be represented only in the first level of the pyramid. Extremly rare (high cost too) resources contributes to high level of the pyramid.
So I will explain the pyramid again.
Each citizen has proper needs, which can be divided into groups.
The first group corresponds to living (natural) needs, all resources present on the map of Civ IV which are EXTREMLY COMMON for the citizen, with the 3 levels of manufacturation.
The second group corresponds to the family, the health and the activity of the citizen in the society, (have a "nice" job, plenty of children, health,...) but the resources which are COMMON for the citizen too.
The third group corresponds to the membership, culture, RELIGION, sport, spare time group activities, but the resources which are RARE too....
The fourth level corresponds to the self development, education, art, creativity, spare time lonesome activities, but the resources which are EXTREMLY RARE too.
Each citizen must fullfill its needs in order to be happy.
But
- some citizens have only primary needs. They only want to eat to be happy. They are jovial fellows with exceptionnal good morale. So, once they have completed the first level, they are happy and even if they have needs in others groups too, they will be happy anyway.(class 1 citizens)
- some citizens will be happy once the 1st and 2nd levels completed: (class 2 citizens)
- some citizens will be happy once the first 3 levels completed: (class 3 citizens)
- some citizens will be happy once the 4 levels completed: (class 4 citizens)
How to determine the character of each citizen ?
A gaussian law for example:
about 15% of people are in class 1 and 4
about 35% of people are in class 2 and 3
How to detemine the influence of one resource?
As I said, one resource can bring food, clothes, utils, materials, munitions, weapons with 3 levels of manufacturation. The cost of one resource depends on its scarcity(demand/supply). Rare products will affect more the happiness of your citizens because they are located in the highest degrees of the pyramid. They are more difficult to access.
How to determine the proportions of each parameter?
Happiness depends on
- age (we can distinguish 3 ages (before having a job, employee and pensioner)
- nationality of the citizen vs nationality of its city and of the civilization
- governments,
- resources (essential resources, rare resources...)
- family (births, deaths, relations...),
- health (diseases, wars...) ,
- money (job, purchasing power...),
- spare time activities : culture and sport (buildings (colosseum, stadium...), ...)
- safety, justice, liberty
- religion (building...)
- war
It is consequently difficult to determine a simple formula to determine hapiness.
Last edited by amitourlo on 26-02-2005 at 01:07
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Trifna
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of anchovies
Jul 2001
time: 13:23
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Ok...
So you proposed that Civ4 get an Exel sheet with all those given to the player?? Please, you need to say HOW it would be in the game, not only WHAT you would like to see included. Otherwise, it's still not a game and it's only a proposed feature without any explanation of how it'd work in-game. It's just "this is how I believe it is in society".
A good example:
quote:
Each citizen has proper needs, which can be divided into groups. |
Do you mean we should get 32 million bars indicating each citizen's mood?... Say HOW it is to be in-game. Example: "You get 4 bars, each indicating the average % of fulfilment of this need among citizens" (or something)
quote:
some citizens will be happy once the 1st and 2nd levels completed |
Some citizens? Any?? How do you expect this to be in-game?
quote:
Happiness depends on
- governments,
- resources (
- family(births, deaths...),
- health (diseases, wars...) ,
- money (job, purchasing power...),
- spare time activities (buildings (colosseum, stadium...), ...). |
How do you expect this to be in-game? Do you see the average player checking how much spare time and money his citizens have? The average player would not look at 7 bars indicating 7 aspects to then calculate his policies. How can spare time and pocket money can be included in-game?
From what you established of "what exists in society", it could become about 100 different in-game models.
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amitourlo
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First of all, I wrote in the first line that my previous post was not finished and you can see there are some blanks in it. (I would never have sent its post, I will never do it again) Indeed I try to do another excel sheet about hapiness but it is difficult and I had not the time to finish it.
Then, I want to precise that I count on the intelligence, logic mind of my readers to expand my ideas. Naturally that is evidence that there won't be 32 Millions bars! Im not stupid and you are not stupid too. You had already concluded that a citizen represents in fact a group of citizens like in other Civ. For my excel sheet, I wanted to prouve that my system works. And you know, when you have a huge number of cities or units (for example 400 tanks or 100 cities) in Civ 3, it is already a bit an Excel sheet in the F2 and F3 screens !
You ask me a lot of questions about HOW to do the things. I understand you perfectly: I know it would be easier if I had already all done and brought the solution completed. It would be wonderful but I can't do it alone: it is difficult to propose large modifications in such a game without a team around me to help me. I would appreciate if you suggested me constructive solutions rather than How, How, How
And you are interested in the Maslow pyramid but this is not the only think of my initial document. I don't know how the other Civilizations are programmed so it is not easy to create a new system, believe me and trust me.
Lastly, I am not a profesionnal programmer.
I like to waste my time by thinking about improving a game, not about tiping the source code. I'm not an informatician.
Last edited by amitourlo on 26-02-2005 at 01:11
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Max Sinister
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Would you include religion into your concept too? if yes: Why do people want it? My answer: If they're unhappy. What causes unhappiness? And so on.
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amitourlo
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Religion is a very difficult problem in our world. It has always led to wars. I think it is impossible to treat Religion with a realistic manner in the game. It is too dangerous. Firaxis and developpers could be easely sued for that if there was the slightest problem. Safety is born of caution even if it would considerably improve the game incorporating a good system of religion.
Why do people want Religion ?
For me, it is not only for unhappiness. It is beacause they have fear of death. It is my personnal feeling so I prefer not to developp that.
However I consider that Religion is influencing the happiness: that seems logical.
What causes happiness ?
All the needs of people are not fulfilled.
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Trifna
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of anchovies
Jul 2001
time: 13:23
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amitourlo: I understand that you cannot do everything, but the problem is that all this is sticking on "How it works in a society" without going further on "How it would be implemented in the game". The idea of incorporating Maslow in a ressource system can potentially bring something interesting, but not if it stays to "How it works in a society". Often, we already know how things work in a society, and it wont make it to the game because it is not straight-forward model to do so to start with anyway. If you want to discuss of bringing something to the game, you can show how you'd do it. With simply something "that could be implemented", well everyone would get everything implemented but that doesn't mean they would develop someone else's idea into a model.
And there is no need for a complete team for that. In fact, it's the opposite: The team comes when puting so many people's energy in looks fruitfull to them. All these "HOW" is what I generally discuss on these boards. In fact, you did the part that most would not touch: the hardest part of starting to demonstrate it on reality with figures and so on. Generally, one does it do this extent only if it is worth their energy and necessary to support their model.
All the "HOW" are the part generally discussed here. How would the player deal with this? Are you talking of having 20 ressources all independant? Or is it 4 "ressources types" with 4 sliders? Or is it mutating 10 ressources in new "types"? Your system can become lots of different things; so if YOU believe you have a point there, show us how it would be something in the game. Otherwise, it is a bit like "I would like more spying included. Here is the proof that there is spying in this world. Could you modelize this?" It does not bring more from which to modelize, and most posters will probably go on with their own posts rather than adopting others'.
Otherwise, I will only remember "Yep, Maslow is an interesting concept in reality." and maybe some day I'll have an idea about Maslow and post my own conception and modelization of it. There are lots of interesting things to incorporate: the point is often less about "demonstrating that they exist in reality" than to show it can be modelized. My first post on Apolyton was over 10 Microsoft Word pages: I just included my ideas of each sub-section of Civ, thinking it could continue within the List and be discussed. Use? Pointless, the List was closed by then and it was not adapted to discussion. In your case, my impression is that most would not put their time to modelize your idea when they have their own.
Cheers
Trifna (Which finds the idea of Maslow in history interesting, but as one of the 10 001 concepts to be explored. Thinking about it may be useful in the future... In the meantime, we're at the same point, and modelizing takes time and is taken on exams' currency: time  )
Last edited by Trifna on 26-02-2005 at 17:25
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20-02-2005 21:54
But I see you point to civfanatics, if you posted it early enough, it might have been noted already.
@ "you must go to war instead of watching tv"
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