21-02-2005 03:12									#1
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The Morganites have sent us a treaty. Sign it?

Current policy regarding build orders favors formers, crawlers, rec tanks, and rec commons.

Terraforming is oriented towards boreholes and condensor-farms, though we will only produce them slowly.

	21-02-2005 10:34									#2
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This turn, we need to decide our future relations with the Spartans and the Morganites.

The Spartans have been cold to us most of the time we've known them, though they have not actually been hostile. They have at least modest military might, as evidenced by their latest escapades.

The Morganites looked like they'd run away with the game early on, but have lost quite a bit of ground, especially with the destruction of their capital.

Both societies are ideologically rather opposed to the Gaians.

We can overtly or covertly align ourselves with zero, one, or two of the Spartans and the Morganites. Input?

	21-02-2005 15:39									#3
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Blah.. this is a very hard decision..

	21-02-2005 21:59									#4
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Anyone on our team who wants to influence our future, this is the perfect time to do so. With a few days in which to express your opinion, there's no excuse for failing to do so.

	23-02-2005 03:33									#5
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So it seems the Gaian team is reduced to three members:

Chaos Theory
binTravkin
Ouro_827

sigh...

	23-02-2005 06:29									#6
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and me! - I'd align overtly with the Morganites only. Reasoning: intuition. I'd have to think in more detail harder about that intuition. I think it would do two fold things which is to focus Spartans on the Hive, keeping Hive busy and away from us, and two allowing us and Morganites to pick off Spartans once they've been weakened in their war with Hive. One down 3 to go, with us in the 3.

	23-02-2005 11:47									#7
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Why would allying with the Morganites aim the Spartans for the Hive? We can't provide any military assistance to either side, and can't otherwise influence their war much directly.

	23-02-2005 12:30									#8
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Not now - but when Sparta sees Us+Morgan teamed up, I think they'll redirect efforts at the Hive as easier pickings then attacking either one of us. They will be busy directing war efforts on the Hive while we + Morgan grow in potential. When we're both stronger, then we can aim our sites at Sparta when they've been doing momentum rushes at the hive and leaving their builder strategies behind. Gaians and Morgans make great builders. 2 builders versus one momentum faction will win. That's my 2 cents.

	23-02-2005 13:08									#9
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A good point I think.
My intuition is rather close to freashman's..

	23-02-2005 13:12									#10
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Transcript of discussion with freshman:

(07:30:46) Freshman552: Just replied on Apolyton to your alignment question
(07:32:15) ChaosLemma: I doubt the Spartans would waste their troops on a hardened AI opponent when they could send them against a squishy human builder
(07:32:16) Freshman552 logged in.
(07:32:51) ChaosLemma: Even teamed up, we're individually just as soft given the distance between us
(07:38:57) Freshman552: Humans aren't as squishy as you think. I think over time Morgan will become more hardened as it reacts to Spartans and Hive will indeed look a more attractive target especially after seeing that we are aligned. Spartans can't afford to attack two builders simultaneously and they can't afford to leave one of the 2 builders run away with building, hence they will choose the strategy of occupying the center.
(07:41:05) ChaosLemma: Well, over long enough time, the AI will clearly be inferior to the human factions, but it's still high from its starting bonuses. It has lots of troops, and perimeter defenses everywhere. If the Morganites respond properly, they'll harden up, and I suppose if they can't, we might as well ally with them anyway, to blunt the Spartans. The Spartans can't afford to attack two builders at once, but they can, and must, attack one of them, given that I think Yang has the center too well defended for now.
(07:41:43) Freshman552: Then lets go with the blunting strategy
(07:43:06) ChaosLemma: Hopefully we'll discover a fifth faction member, and get opinions from binTravkin and Ouro. Otherwise, I'll basically have to act on this discussion alone.
(07:44:02) Freshman552: well - you've got my 2 cents. I guess thats all I have to offer in this democracy
(07:45:29) Freshman552: we could be providing Morgans with the tech necessary for them to harden up you know
(07:45:42) ChaosLemma: We don't have any tech they don't
(07:46:35) Freshman552: But we could be the researchers for them while they direct their ECs towards defence. Are you writing this stuff down for the thread?
(07:47:42) ChaosLemma: The Gaians don't research very quickly compared to the Morganites, face it. I keep logs of my chats.
(07:52:16) Freshman552: Still - freeing up ECs for defenses for them might be nice if we redirected our efforts through trade or our own research or some other means at providing them defensive techs. The Data Angels might be able to "acquire" some D-techs which we would be middlemen for to give to the Morgans. I think the 3 of us need to be as open as possible with each other to deal with the Spartans.
(07:53:15) ChaosLemma: Why would we be middlemen for the DAs and the Morganites? They both know we've met the other, and wouldn't be very happy about having to go through us.
(07:54:41) Freshman552: How long would it take for us to research a D-tech ourselves if we switched right now?
(07:54:56) Freshman552: and went full steam on research?
(07:55:20) ChaosLemma: We're currently researching HEC, which is defensive. At +0 effic, we could only devote about 60% of our total energy to research, compared to 50% with current settings.
(07:55:35) ChaosLemma: The Morganites have HEC already, and may or may not trade it.
(07:56:07) Freshman552: Suppose we switch to another defensive tech?
(07:56:37) Freshman552: in exchange for HEC - so that M can direct ECs at defense?
(07:57:20) Freshman552: And redirect our crawlers at energy
(07:57:27) Freshman552: then how long?
(07:57:51) ChaosLemma: Our tech times are fairly long, approximately 10 years IIRC. We can't get very large amounts of energy from our crawlers and would get more energy overall by using them to produce formers faster.
(07:58:16) ChaosLemma: Keep in mind we can't get too cozy with the Morganites, since we can't have a coop victory and apart from the Spartans they're probably still in the best position.
(07:58:57) ChaosLemma: From most tiles, our crawlers can get 0-1 energy. Those tiles that yield 2 energy are mostly being utilitzed already.
(07:59:05) Freshman552: Yeah - but they'd still be weakened by having to switch to defense - while we can continue to build
(07:59:24) Freshman552: So I think our overall position is strengthened by aligned overtly with them
(07:59:35) ChaosLemma: They'll switch to defense regardless of our stance, and would switch to a lesser degree as a result of cooperating with them
(08:00:04) ChaosLemma: The best case scenario for us is a stalemate between the Morganites and the Spartans. Unfortunately, neither side will be honest about its strength or its opponent's strength.
(08:00:14) Freshman552: OK - let me take another tack with you
(08:00:19) ChaosLemma: Each will claim to be weak relative to its opponent
(08:00:39) Freshman552: Suppose we let Spartans run over the Morgans. Are we stronger then?
(08:01:14) ChaosLemma: *If* the Spartans can run over the Morganites, we will be weaker for failing to help them.
(08:02:06) Freshman552: stalemate is what I'm after. blunting is what I'm after. I think that aligning and helping Morgan is the best way to achieve that.
(08:03:06) ChaosLemma: Fair enough, but we'll have to continually pay attention to who seems to be winning. Remember that each side will be attempting to convince us they are losing, even if winning, until they've achieved a strong enough position to disregard us.
(08:03:16) Freshman552: let the big dogs fight it out while we continue to build.
(08:03:40) Freshman552: and help them have a wonderful stalemate by providing good D
(08:04:25) ChaosLemma: Except we can't directly provide defense - whatever we give the other factions can as easily be used to fund building or offense.
(08:05:13) Freshman552: I dont follow that - I think we can directly provide defense
(08:06:38) ChaosLemma: Every tech, even if it has defensive applications, is useful in other ways and as a prereq. ECs can obviously be used in many ways. We can't give units. Even if we provide defense directly, the receiving faction gets to spend less on defense and more on anything else.
(08:07:39) Freshman552: The point is they wont achieve a strong enough position to disregard us - and M needs to catch up on D and so will spend everything on D including what we give them
(08:08:34) ChaosLemma: They can't do that, or they'll lose whether or not Sparta attacks them. We need to be careful to not feed the leading faction, also. Despite Sparta conquering Morgan's capital, it's not clear who's stronger overall.
(08:10:03) Freshman552: Bottom line, and this is my last 2 cents for the night, when in 3rd place, it always helps to bolster the 2nd place guy and watch #1 and #2 fight it out while we gain strength. Then they'll be in stalemate while we grow ahead of either of them. aloha
(08:10:10) Freshman552: freshman
(08:10:31) ChaosLemma: Yep. I'll just put this up on the boards then.
(08:10:50) Freshman552 logged out.

	23-02-2005 13:36									#11
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I think we should talk to Data Angels, maybe they have more info about both Morgans and Spartan strenght, but for now it seems Sparta is on the rampage.

The 2 situations can be:
1.Sparta knows PTS is an ultimate for Morgan and puts all effort to destroy it.
Ok, it's good. But what the other factions think?
"Aha! Sparta is so strong that it can go to MI in no time, that means we align with Morgan"

I think it's a quite unlikely scenario, as Sparta knows it can't afford others to unite and Spartan leaders are wise..

2.Sparta is ready to fight with Morgan a total war, just want to show other it's not strong enough to do it, it's strong enough to kill capital only..

Which one should we believe?
(or maybe there's a 3rd scenario?)

	25-02-2005 21:51									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Chaos Theory So it seems the Gaian team is reduced to three members: Chaos Theory binTravkin Ouro_827 sigh...

Not that 4 members is much better than 3, but I am still here.....

Work has been brutal since Xmas, so my time left to post is on the margins. To my defense I did mention I would be too busy through Feb in an earlier post. Plus I do check in more often than I post, but by the time I get to post on things, they have already been decided. Not that I feel I am being excluded or anything. Having no MP experience I often don't have that much to add anyway.

I do apologise for not being more involved. If I wasn't a week behind in my RL work, I would show my red, angry, drone face more often.

As far as alliances go, my philosophy is on this type of situation is: "Ally with everyone, ally with no one".
We already have it good with the Angles, lets keep it that way. Then we secretly align with both the Morgans and the Spartans telling them both how we don't trust the other faction for whatever made up reason. Since we are not a powerful faction, we maybe seen as too impetent to be a threat, but friendly enough to serve as a spy. Over time if we work both sides long enough, they may wear each other down. As long as we are low man on the power totem pole, we wont be making many overt actions anyway. We can tell both sides we are actually a double agent for their side.
If either side really starts to bite at the rouse, we play it up even more, to the point of getting the other faction to play along.

So sign the treaty. If Sparta questions us, tell them we didn't want to appear to be a threat to the Morganites because we don't have the defensive strength to fend them off, but that we are still friends of the Spartans.

	26-02-2005 04:03									#13
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A minor quibble:
It’s a crawler’s birthright to crawl 4 or more product. The crawler east of Virgin Soil is, no doubt, a very unhappy bot. It should be moved towards Deirdre’s Memory ASAP to crawl 4 nuts or 4 mins.

The game situation:
(1) We should be thanking Sparta for destroying the PTS. Morgan was nigh unstoppable with the PTS, HGP, & PEG combination in place. Even without PTS, Morgan is a force to be reckoned with. Let’s not feel sorry for them or worry about their survival. A treaty is good, and I would even pact with them to incease our commerce and theirs vs Sparta. Playing for a stalemate, Morgan vs Sparta, sounds about right.
(2) How did Sparta get 3 SP’s? They must be gathering sea AA’s right and left. With the MCC they rule the waves. They, no doubt, have infiltrated Morgan’s datalinks. Have they infiltrated ours yet? I suspect not, and we should do everything possible to keep them from doing so, now. We need probes in our vulnerable bases ASAP. It will be twice as hard for us to win if we are infiltrated.
(3) Morgan and Sparta will never team up against us.
(4) If Sparta attacks us we can seek a no holds bared research pact with Morgan. Sparta knows this so most likely they will not attack us until they have dealt with Morgan. We are free to build for now so just let’s not get infiltrated.

	01-03-2005 04:48									#14
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I've been away for over a week, and will be here for nearly another week on spring break, but I did find enough time to finally make it here. Apparently, sounds like Sparta's beating down Morgan. Therefore, for us to have a decent chance of ending up high, logic dictates that we assist Morgan, however covertly, to wear down everyone else. So, yes, I say sign with Morgan if possible. State, subtly or otherwise, that the Gaian Union does not believe such brutal killing is needed. Sparta doesn't really have any allies, insofar as we know. The closest ones are the DAs, who I'd like to believe are more friendly to us.

	01-03-2005 12:40									#15
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I've not read the posts, but will post some info there:

I wonder if someone has done it before, but it seems that the answer is negative:

1.Open last turn and see Hiverian powergraph. To me it's clear - war with Sparta is taking it's toll.

2.See also infiltration of all bases. As former AI advisor I can say that the things look pretty horrible for Yang:

First - there's a spartan probe squad (transport + probe team) near one of it's bases (which Hive can't sink) and probably a rover or two on board as well.
It means Sparta already has Hiverian techs..

Second - many of the Hiverian outlying bases are almost empty of troops, while some inland contain up to 10 garrisons. It's easy to pick off the outlying ones (especially with amphibious attacks) triggering the garrisons coming out and trying to block the advance, then capturing those same garrisons and using against Hive.

Third - Sparta has taken a loan of at least 300 Ecs from Hive. I suspect it was something between 350-450 and was when Sparta was still not so powerful faction.


The summary - Hive might soon be no more. It needs only a dozen of rovers/amphibious infantry and a half dozen of probes to take it.
I think it's not too hard to produce (would take ~5 turns for Sparta).
Plus some of them have been taken from the battles of Uni, probably even half of them (all elite of course).


I think that speaks..

	01-03-2005 12:42									#16
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And I expect Sparta to start using X weapon soon. For them it's no difference now anyway..

	01-03-2005 12:58									#17
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I posted to another thread (DataAngels) but I'll post here.
1) need for landbridge project : minimal IMHO (Hive is pre-occupied with Sparta). Plus it could be money better spent on our infrastructure. (BTW have we contacted him lately to see if he needs a friend to help out with Sparta?)
2) why not go Democracy for efficiency + growth now? only 1min/base in support. Gives us the opportunity to switch to 0% research for 51 ECs for more infrastructure build up
3) what is X weapon? Is that a planet buster?

Overall I think we can let Sparta handle Morgan/Hive for us while we Build build build - even putting research on hold.

	01-03-2005 13:05									#18
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quote: Hive is pre-occupied with Sparta

And that is what we fear.

quote: what is X weapon?

Gas attack +50% damage. an amphibious gas missile infantry has an attack of 12 ( 6*(1+0.5+0.5)) or even 6*1.5*1.5 = 13.5. I don't remember the actual formula.
Plus add the Spartan morale..
A 6*1.5*1.5-1-2(+1) = 12(13.5)-1-3 rover. Nice, isn't it?
Hive now feeds us 5-1-2. Sparta won't "feed" those I named. They will come in unexpected and clear a base per one per turn!

quote: Overall I think we can let Sparta handle Morgan/Hive for us while we Build build build

Are you advising to build Morgan + Sparta + Hive + Half of the Uni?

Do you really think Gaia, or even Gaia+Angels can do that?
Add the PK territory (which I bet will be taken if game gets till MMI)..

	01-03-2005 20:06									#19
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Regarding MMI, keep in mind that choppers can't attack bases.