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Spiffor is offline Spiffor
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  Old Post 22-02-2005 01:17
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New Sea Discovered on Mars Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

A fairly large frozen sea has been discovered today on Mars. Pretty close to the Equator, and covered only by 45m of dust.

Already scientists wish the next lander to go there. Can't wait to see further findings

From the BBC:
quote:
Mars pictures reveal frozen sea
A huge, frozen sea lies just below the surface of Mars, a team of European scientists has announced.

Their assessment is based on pictures of the planet's near-equatorial Elysium region that show plated and rutted features across an area 800 by 900km.

The team think a catastrophic event flooded the landscape five million years ago and then froze out.

They tell a forthcoming edition of Nature magazine that sediments covered the ice, locking it in place.

Large reserves of water-ice are known to be held at the poles on Mars but if this discovery is confirmed by follow-up observations, it would be a first for a region at such a low latitude.

Dust covering

"It's been predicted for a long time that you should find water close to the surface of Mars near the equator," Jan-Peter Muller, from University College London, UK, said.

What we'd like is for the European Space Agency (Esa), with UK support, to send its next lander there
Jan-Peter Muller, University College London
"This is an area where there are a lot of river features but no-one has ever seen a sea before, and certainly no-one has ever seen pack ice before," he told the BBC News website.

The interpretation is based on images taken by the High Resolution Stereo Camera on Europe's Mars Express spacecraft. These show extensive fields of large, platy features - reminiscent of the fractured ice floes found in polar regions on Earth.

Finding exposed ice at the equator would be unlikely. Very low pressures on the planet would lead to sublimation - the ice would erode over time straight to water vapour.

But the research group, led by John Murray, from the Open University, UK, tells Nature that a crust of dust and volcanic ash, perhaps just a few centimetres thick, has prevented this happening.

"The story runs that water flowed in some kind of massive catastrophic event; pack ice formed on top of that water and broke up, and then the whole thing froze rigid," explains Professor Muller.

"Large amounts of dust then fell over that area. The dust fell through the water and on top of the pack ice, which explains why the pack ice is a different hue to the area around it."

Feeder channels

The water that formed the sea in the southern Elysium, five degree north of the equator, appears to have originated beneath the surface of Mars, erupting from a series of fractures known as the Cerberus Fossae.

Many of the features seen by Mars Express have also been pictured by the Mars Orbiter Camera on the US Mars Global Surveyor probe.

Further data is now required to support the initial observations but already other scientists think the interpretation is reasonable.

"I think it's fairly plausible," commented Michael Carr, an expert on Martian water at the US Geological Survey in Menlo Park, California, who was not part of the team.

He told New Scientist magazine that a past water source north of the Elysium plates had previously been suspected.

"We know where the water came from... You can trace the valleys carved by water down to this area."

Mars Express has now been in orbit around the Red Planet for a year.

It has already confirmed US observations that substantial water-ice lies at the poles, on its own and mixed with carbon dioxide ice and dirt.

Lander target

The probe will soon deploy its Marsis (Mars Advance Radar for Subsurface and Ionospheric Sounding) instrument, which has been designed to find the planet's subterranean permafrost.

This underground ice is thought to be the major reservoir for water on Mars today.

However, the way the instrument is set up means it may not be able to see the Elysium sea because it is simply too near the surface. Only if the ice mass extends down many tens of metres will it be able to detect the sea-bottom boundary.

The presence of so much recent (in the geological timeframe) liquid water will excite the speculation that life could have thrived in this area.

"The fact that there have been warm and wet places beneath the surface of Mars since before life began on Earth, and that some are probably still there, means that there is a possibility that primitive micro-organisms survive on Mars today," Professor Murray said.

"This mission has changed many of my long-held opinions about Mars - we now have to go there and check it out."

Professor Muller added: "What we'd like is for the European Space Agency (Esa), with UK support, to send its next lander there."

Details of the frozen sea were given at the Mars Express science conference, taking place at Esa's European Space Research and Technology Centre (ESTEC), in Noordwijk, the Netherlands.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
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  Old Post 22-02-2005 01:19
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Are they sure it's frozen all the way? A few years back they found a large lake in Antartica which actually had a fair amount of unfrozen water at the bottom. Supposedly scientists were saying they wanted to study the microbs found in this lake since it likely had been frozen since antartic moved so far south.

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  Old Post 22-02-2005 01:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
Are they sure it's frozen all the way?

I don't think they're too sure of anything right now I also don't think there will be more details about this sea until a lander goes there, or at least a better satellite. The instruments in Mars Express apparently weren't made to observe a sea so close to the surface, from the article.

Winston is offline Winston
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  Old Post 22-02-2005 02:00
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Interesting news, but it's a bit amusing that they keep saying they want ESA to send its next lander there...

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cool. who's up for surfing?

though we may have to warm things up a bit first.

The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
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  Old Post 22-02-2005 02:07
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We're sending an SUV over there next.

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quote:
Originally posted by Dissident
though we may have to warm things up a bit first.

You'd be surfing on water vapor then

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
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Originally posted by The Mad Monk
We're sending an SUV over there next.

Way too heavy for the launchers. And where will it find all the gas to guzzle?

At least, it's good that you support Mars' global warming

The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
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  Old Post 22-02-2005 02:52
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The first rover we sent there was the size of a toy truck, and the next (a pair) was golf-cart sized.

It's the next logical step.

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  Old Post 22-02-2005 02:53
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Personally, I'd favor sending an ATAT walker.

The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
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  Old Post 22-02-2005 02:57
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Here it is, all three metric tons of it:

quote:
Planned Launch: December, 2009
Arrival: October, 2010
Mass: Approximately 3,000 kilograms (6,600 pounds), fueled
Science Instruments: Mars Science Laboratory Mast Camera, Laser Induced Remote Sensing for Chemistry and Micro-Imaging, Mars Hand Lens Imager, Alpha Particle X-Ray Spectrometer, X-Ray Diffraction/X-Ray Fluorescence Instrument, Radiation Assessment Detector, Mars Descent Imager, Gas Chromatograph Mass Spectrometer/Tunable Laser Spectrometer, Pulsed Neutron Source and Detector, Meteorological Package with Ultraviolet Sensor

Building on the success of the two rover geologists that arrived at Mars in January, 2004, NASA's next rover mission is being planned for travel to Mars before the end of the decade. Twice as long and three times as heavy as the Mars Exploration Rovers Spirit and Opportunity, the Mars Science Laboratory would collect martian soil samples and rock cores and analyze them for organic compounds and environmental conditions that could have supported microbial life now or in the past. The mission is anticipated to have a truly international flavor, with a neutron-based hydrogen detector for locating water provided by the Russian Federal Space Agency, a meteorological package provided by the Spanish Ministry of Education and Science, and a spectrometer provided by the Canadian Space Agency with participation by the Max Planck Institute for Chemistry in Germany.

Mars Science Laboratory is intended to be the first planetary mission to use precision landing techniques, steering itself toward the martian surface similar to the way the space shuttle controls its entry through the Earth’s upper atmosphere. In this way, the spacecraft would fly to a desired location above the surface of Mars before deploying its parachute for the final landing. As currently envisioned, in the final minutes before touchdown, the spacecraft would activate its parachute and retro rockets before lowering the rover package to the surface on a tether (similar to the way a skycrane helicopter moves a large object). This landing method would enable the rover to land in an area 20 to 40 kilometers (12 to 24 miles) long, about the size of a small crater or wide canyon and three to five times smaller than previous landing zones on Mars.

Like the twin rovers now on the surface of Mars, Mars Science Laboratory would have six wheels and cameras mounted on a mast. Unlike the twin rovers, it would carry a laser for vaporizing a thin layer from the surface of a rock and analyzing the elemental composition of the underlying materials. It would then be able to collect and crush rock and soil samples and distribute them to on-board test chambers for chemical analysis. Its design includes a suite of scientific instruments for identifying organic compounds such as proteins, amino acids, and other acids and bases that attach themselves to carbon backbones and are essential to life as we know it. It could also identify features such as atmospheric gases that may be associated with biological activity.

Using these tools, Mars Science Laboratory would examine martian rocks and soils in greater detail than ever before to determine the geologic processes that formed them; study the martian atmosphere; and determine the distribution and circulation of water and carbon dioxide, whether frozen, liquid, or gaseous.

NASA plans to select a landing site on the basis of highly detailed images sent to Earth by the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter beginning in 2006, in addition to data from earlier missions.

NASA is considering a radioisotope power source that would generate electricity to power sophisticated science instruments and systems. This power source would also allow the rover to operate at higher and lower latitudes than those that might be traversed by a similarly equipped rover dependent on solar and battery power.

"The MSL team is working diligently to accommodate the breakthrough payload that was recently selected, clearly the most scientifically powerful in history, and our first real ‘shot’ at following the biogeochemical cycles on another world," said James Garvin, NASA Chief Scientist at the space agency’s headquarters in Washington, D.C.

Garvin told SPACE.com that MSL will carry devices to measure on-the-spot ionizing radiation. Also, the heavy-duty rover will perform general meteorology, water content assessments, mineralogy, and image at scales beyond those that the Mars Exploration Rovers have so effectively demonstrated, he said.

The MSL payload is very "exploration-centric", Garvin concluded.


http://www.space.com/businesstechno...lab_050105.html

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
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Wow, I wonder how much of that mass is dedicated to fuel

The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
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  Old Post 22-02-2005 03:06
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Early rendition -- note the lack of solar panels:



I heard -- somewhere -- that they're designing a tiny fission plant, like on Cassinni, so that it can do without solar panels.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
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quote:
Originally posted by The Mad Monk
I heard -- somewhere -- that they're designing a tiny fission plant, like on Cassinni, so that it can do without solar panels.

Wow

And good news, as fuel won't eat up too much mass

The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
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quote:

After entering the atmosphere, being slowed by a parachute, the Skycrane hovers to 15 feet (five meters) above the planet's surface, then releases the Mars Science Laboratory with a tether. Credit: NASA/JPL


Seriously freaky landing system.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
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Looks like a video game

Dis is offline Dis
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anyone have details on that Cassini fission plant? I admit I did not know it had one. Having worked in the nuclear power industry in the past, I'm curious of the design. I'm a reactor design buff . I love all the science that goes in the design of reactors. You just don't thrown them together. Everything has to be in the correct ration and in the correct position in order to have proper moderation of neutrons.

Small nuclear reactors I find intersting. I would like to get one for my home . For spacecraft, they wouldn't have to use as much shielding. Though neutron radiation can cause steel to become brittle, especially when cold or undergoing rapid cool down (the reason why we control cool down rates when shutting down our reactors)

The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
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My first thought on seeing it was, "That's straight out of the landing scene from Aliens!"

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
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Gah. I'm already thinking of the outrageous amount of energy it must require to have this 3-ton thing hover. Even if it's not as bad as Earth, Mars' gravity is real.

DanS is offline DanS
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  Old Post 22-02-2005 03:16 Visit DanS's homepage!
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This is cool stuff!

Am I correct in thinking that the sea itself is 45 meters deep, but that the thickness of the dust covering hasn't been given?

quote:
Wow, I wonder how much of that mass is dedicated to fuel


Not much. It will be fueled by an RTG -- i.e., low-grade nuclear.

http://www.nuclearspace.com/a_2009_Rover.htm

The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
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I goofed on that -- it's an RTG, not a fission plant.

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quote:
Originally posted by DanS
This is cool stuff!

Am I correct in thinking that the sea itself is 45 meters deep, but that the thickness of the dust covering hasn't been given?

From what I understand, the dust is 45m thick, but the depht of the sea is unknown. They say it's unlikely that Mars Express' further instruments can be used on this one, unless it's many more tens of metres deeper... I interpret it as an uncertainty about the depht of the sea, and as a "confident guess" about the thickness of the dust.

The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Personally, I'd favor sending an ATAT walker.


That's slated for after the Abrams tank.

The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
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quote:


Although the type of RTG's to be used on the 2009 Mars Rover is not known, we can make a safe assumption that they will be similar in performance to the last nuclear powered spacecraft - Cassini. Each of the three RTG's onboard Cassini generates about 290 watts of electric power. The 2009 Rover specifications currently call for two RTG units. If they are identical to the Cassini RTG's then we can expect a total available power level of 580 watts. Now compare that to Spirit and Opportunity's solar power generation of 140 watts and you will see that the 2009 Rover will have over four times the power levels available.

But it's not just about the total amount of electrical generation for the science instruments. It's also the duration of power generation. Spirit and Opportunity max out at 140 watts for up to four hours per day. The nuclear powered rover will have 580 watts of power production available 24 hours and 37 minutes (the length of a martian day) every day. The 2009 Rover's power surplus will allow increased robotic capability that is expected to significantly increase the quality and quantity of science conducted on the Martian surface. Compared to the 2003 MER rovers equipped to travel up to 100 yards a day for three-months, the MSL rover will explore miles of the Red Planet during a multiyear mission, conducting science investigation in less time and with less human oversight than previous Mars rovers.


Hope that give you some idea, Diss.

The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
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  Old Post 22-02-2005 03:32
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Oh look, it's armed.

http://www.nuclearspace.com/a_2009_Rover.htm

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
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  Old Post 22-02-2005 07:32
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What happened to all the shielding on that fission reactor?

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  Old Post 22-02-2005 07:59
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Pay no attention to the mad ravings about fission reactors.

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  Old Post 22-02-2005 08:31
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quote:
Originally posted by The Mad Monk
Early rendition -- note the lack of solar panels:



I heard -- somewhere -- that they're designing a tiny fission plant, like on Cassinni, so that it can do without solar panels.



the viking stuff was nuclear(and earlier stuff as well). Its solid stuff, but we should do both solar and nuclear for these guys.

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I claim the ocean.

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The commies claim Mars - it's not called the Red Planet for nothing.

 
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