24-02-2005 01:51									#211
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quote: Well, since China does, on the whole, seem to be getting nicer, postponing its more-or-less inevitable rise seems like a good idea.

OK.

I don't see China rising to dominate the world, so it doesn't bother me. I thought this argument was about China becoming more powerful, not the ruler of the world.

rulers

	24-02-2005 01:55									#212
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Is refusing to sell weapons to China isolating them? IIUC the EU limits weapons sales to Israel, and to Taiwan. Would you say youve tried to isolate Israel or Taiwan, or to wage a cold war on them?

Israel has German U-Boats IIRC.....not sure what's with Taiwan.

	24-02-2005 01:55									#213
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China having a blue water Navy that would mean anything to the US other than a great oportunity to create a large swath of man made reefs in the South China sea is ridiculous. It would take them 20 years to get where we are now, and of course by then we will be another 20 years ahead of them.

China is hopelessly outclassed right now by most European navies.

Which of course is why they have no chance of mounting a successful invasion of Tawain in the nexy 20 years if the US goes hot.

A arms buildup by China will yeild nothing more than the US increasing its edge against her in kind. Net result, US is still in control, EU is a very distant third. And remember even if China can somehow balance out US power in Asia, the US is still the the only power that matters in the rest of the world.

	24-02-2005 01:59									#214
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon OK. I don't see China rising to dominate the world, so it doesn't bother me. I thought this argument was about China becoming more powerful, not the ruler of the world.

They needn't become rulers of the world in order to become strong enough to bully us around.

	24-02-2005 02:02									#215
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quote: They needn't become rulers of the world in order to become strong enough to bully us around.

About what?

"The Gwai-Lo must buy more plastic trinkets or else!!"

I don't buy it. You don't want them to be strong enough to bully us around, but you want us to be able to bully them around?

Why? Because they're yellow?

	24-02-2005 02:05									#216
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon About what? "The Gwai-Lo must buy more plastic trinkets or else!!"

This is faintly ironic from someone prone to complain when the US bullies people around.

quote: I don't buy it. You don't want them to be strong enough to bully us around, but you want us to be able to bully them around? Why? Because they're yellow?

i) Because we're us and they're them.

ii) You're not us.

	24-02-2005 02:09									#217
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quote: i) Because we're us and they're them. ii) You're not us.

No more succint definition of racism ever was.

Who will need to be kept down next? The blacks? The Jews?

	24-02-2005 02:12									#218
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Food!!! **looks around...reads thread** OOOopps sorry just saw feeding the dragon. Thought there was food here

	24-02-2005 02:13									#219
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And of course of all the identifying characteristics that can be infered from "us" and "them" you go for the racism card.

Next to that succint definition of racism is a picture of Agathon.

	24-02-2005 02:17									#220
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Aggie loves to claim racism especially when he's losing the argument.

	24-02-2005 02:22									#221
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The problem is that you guys are just bloody mental.

Your arguments seem to come down to nothing more than ethnic chauvinism, particularly Oerdin's desire for an alliance of white/christian nations.

No one has given any reason why the Chinese should not be allowed to buy better weapons, other than unsupported fears of Chinese expansionism or the old "we don't want anything that would stop us from getting our own way".

The latter is not a particularly compelling reason at all unless you can supply some reason that "our way" would be better for everyone and not just us.

	24-02-2005 02:26									#222
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I've explained why I want western nations to come together in numerous threads. Its based upon shared cultural values, history, and social outlook thus it's more likely to work. You are the only one who keeps claiming racism.

I don't ever recall mentioning religion as a reason and if you check my past posts you'll likely find I'm rather anti-religious plus I'm a big supporter of muslim Turkey, Jewish Israel, and Hindu India.

	24-02-2005 02:31									#223
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I think Japan is a key US ally. If and when China becomes a democracy I will take another look. Meanwhile of course we should not isolate China, but we SHOULD be careful about selling her advanced weapons.

	24-02-2005 02:31									#224
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quote: I've explained why I want western nations to come together in numerous threads. Its based upon shared cultural values, history, and experiences thus it's more likely to work. You are the only one who keeps claiming racism.

Except that there's no such thing. Most western societies are now multicultural societies anyway - the idea that democratic institutions and politics are uniquely western is poppycock.

Moreover, you have given no reason for western nations to come together than isn't a patently self serving American reason.

Why am I supposed to be afraid of China. Please explain why? I have no idea of why I am supposed to be terrified that China is becoming more open and more integrated into the world economy.

	24-02-2005 02:31									#225
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon No more succint definition of racism ever was. Who will need to be kept down next? The blacks? The Jews?

I can't tell if you're just playing a rhetorical card, or really are weapons grade stupid.

	24-02-2005 02:35									#226
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quote: I can't tell if you're just playing a rhetorical card, or really are weapons grade stupid.

As if you have the right to call anyone else stupid.

Because "we're us" and "they're them" is what every two bit skinhead says. If you wanted to be thought better of, it would have helped if you actually tried to make some sense.

Please explain to me why you think that it would be bad overall if the Chinese became more powerful than they are now. What reasons do we have to think they want to attack us? What would be so bad about them becoming more influential?

	24-02-2005 02:38									#227
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist I can't tell if you're just playing a rhetorical card, or really are weapons grade stupid.

ive got the troll on ignore, but your quotes are intensely ironic. Perhaps Oerdin loves the Chinese people and hates racism against them, he just doesnt think statehood for them is a good idea After all, disliking the existence of a particular peoples state, much less trying to keep said state from dominating the world, isnt the same as bigotry against the people or race And anyone who calls someone a racist on those grounds is a namecalling jerk - hell, even to post something that might be read that way makes one a namecalling jerk.

	24-02-2005 02:41									#228
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon The problem is that you guys are just bloody mental.

I shan't comment on your mental health, but you're showing a rather Kidician tendency to read things into others' posts that simply aren't there.

quote: Your arguments seem to come down to nothing more than ethnic chauvinism, particularly Oerdin's desire for an alliance of white/christian nations.

So, in the aggiverse, saying that Chinese are much like westerners is ethnic chauvinism?

quote: No one has given any reason why the Chinese should not be allowed to buy better weapons, other than unsupported fears of Chinese expansionism or the old "we don't want anything that would stop us from getting our own way". The latter is not a particularly compelling reason at all unless you can supply some reason that "our way" would be better for everyone and not just us.

Considering you've not given a reason to think being bullied around by China is preferable to being bullied around by us, I guess we're on the same score here, then.

	24-02-2005 02:41									#229
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Again, no reasons supplied by any of you.

Why is it in the interests of the Chinese government or the Chinese people to attack the west?

Their whole model of economic development is based on selling us stuff. How many sane people want to attack their customers?

	24-02-2005 02:42									#230
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How about this for a reason, Aggie my boy? Because we will all be better off because it and we will all sleep better at night nowing democratic nations have formed a defense alliance to protect each other and because it will help all of our economies.

All your constent wolf crying about racism does is prove people can project what ever they want no matter what reason or logic tell them.

	24-02-2005 02:43									#231
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quote: Considering you've not given a reason to think being bullied around by China is preferable to being bullied around by us, I guess we're on the same score here, then

And what reason do you have to think that the Chinese want to bully us? We're their best customers.

What are they going to do that is worse than the two-bit politicking that goes on between say Europe and the US?

	24-02-2005 02:49									#232
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quote: How about this for a reason, Aggie my boy? Because we will all be better off because it and we will all sleep better at night nowing democratic nations have formed a defense alliance to protect each other and because it will help all of our economies.

Against who?

Alliances are useful in the event of a threatened attack. But the Chinese want to trade with us, and not attack us. I've looked over my desk and almost everything on it, apart from my pack of smokes, was made in China. Somewhere in China, there are many people whose lives have been improved because they can swap stuff with me.

Isolating China will make things worse. China is slowly becoming a freer country and will eventually become a democracy - it's pretty much inevitable given their model of economic development. Allying against China will only help reactionary forces.

I can't think of anything that would hurt our economies more than pissing off the Chinese. It would be like the Canadians trying to isolate the Americans.

And this alliance of yours is a fantasy. If you propose this stuff in NZ, people will laugh, and rightly so. We have a lot of trade with China, they are, on the whole, pretty nice to us, and definitely a lot nicer than the US. Why should we shoot ourselves in the foot by adopting your ridiculous scheme?

	24-02-2005 02:49									#233
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Because "we're us" and "they're them" is what every two bit skinhead says. If you wanted to be thought better of, it would have helped if you actually tried to make some sense.

Racists think ill of other races because they think they're worse than people of their own race. I think ill of people of other races because I think they're much like people of my race. If you can't spot the difference, something is seriously wrong with you.

	24-02-2005 02:52									#234
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin How about this for a reason, Aggie my boy? Because we will all be better off because it and we will all sleep better at night nowing democratic nations have formed a defense alliance to protect each other and because it will help all of our economies. All your constent wolf crying about racism does is prove people can project what ever they want no matter what reason or logic tell them.

so, oerdin, do you think Taiwan belongs in your grand alliance?

	24-02-2005 02:52									#235
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quote: Racists think ill of other races because they think they're worse than people of their own race. I think ill of people of other races because I think they're much like people of my race.

Sorry, I didn't realize you were a misanthrope. But I wonder about what you mean. If they are no worse than us, why do you care who wins?

	24-02-2005 02:54									#236
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Why is it in the interests of the Chinese government or the Chinese people to attack the west?

There's no conceivable reason China should want to attack any western country in the mid-term future. Then, there's no conceivable reason the US should attack any EU country within the foreseeable either; am I therefore to conclude you think I should be happy with US bullying?

quote: Their whole model of economic development is based on selling us stuff. How many sane people want to attack their customers?

Well, people who start wars are not known for their rationality. But I'm not arguing they're gonna attack us; you're basically using strawmen.

	24-02-2005 02:56									#237
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Sorry, I didn't realize you were a misanthrope. But I wonder about what you mean. If they are no worse than us, why do you care who wins?

The fewer people in a position to bully me the better.

	24-02-2005 03:04									#238
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quote: There's no conceivable reason China should want to attack any western country in the mid-term future.

There's no conceivable model by which China would want to attack any country in the mid-term future.

The only possible exception is Taiwan, and that would create an international incident that the Chinese would wish to avoid. Hence they restrict themselves to making idle threats.

quote: Then, there's no conceivable reason the US should attack any EU country within the foreseeable either; am I therefore to conclude you think I should be happy with US bullying?

No. Has China attacked anyone in the last 15 years?

quote: Well, people who start wars are not known for their rationality. But I'm not arguing they're gonna attack us; you're basically using strawmen.

Because you have a problem articulating your position.

You complain that China may bully us (whatever that is supposed to mean) and that this is a reason for keeping them down. But you've provided no evidence that they will in any sense that is not the normal run of international politics, which most nations engage in (whining about trade deals, and strong arming tariff reductions, etc.)

The US on the other hand actually does bully other nations on substantial matters, and has military installations which cover the earth.

Why am I supposed to be scared of China becoming like the US. They have shown little sign of becoming so. At most in the foreseeable future they will become a regional power, but their whole development model is predicated on trade with Europe and the US. Of course, they'll try to pull crap, so do we. But where is the evidence that this will go beyond the small beer norm of international politics.

You are the one suggesting that China is a danger. I'm merely asking you to clarify that position.

	24-02-2005 03:05									#239
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quote: The fewer people in a position to bully me the better.

And the fewer people you are in a position to bully the better?

Yes or no?

If you say no, then what's the point of listening to you. You are just being a selfish whiner.

	24-02-2005 03:33									#240
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I guess I was right then. Shame on you LC.