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DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:22
Question  Old Post 22-02-2005 20:17
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quote:
The journey to Brussels and beyond that President Bush embarks on today promises to extend the happy-talk between America and Europe begun earlier this month by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. Stand by for further affirmation of shared values and common interests. But don’t be surprised if the moment doesn’t last.

The European Union is on the verge of lifting the arms embargo it imposed on the People’s Republic of China following the 1989 Tiananmen Square massacre. If the E.U. carries out this threat -— and make no mistake, this would be a genuinely hostile act against the United States -- the transatlantic tiffs of recent years could come to seem minor, and Bush could be saying a final farewell to old allies rather than renewing strategic bonds.

Over the past 18 months, Europeans have been asserting that the embargo, as French President Jacques Chirac told Chinese leader Hu Jintao during the latter’s visit to Paris early last year, “no longer makes any sense.” On a return visit to Beijing last October, Chirac went further, declaring that denying China advanced arms was “motivated purely and simply by hostility.” German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder chimed in recently, telling Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao -- as the two signed another set of business deals -- that he, too, favored lifting the embargo.

Even British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw argues that it’s unfair to ban arms sales to Beijing as long as there’s no embargo against trading with nuclear-armed North Korea. But rather than close the loophole against Pyongyang, Prime Minister Tony Blair’s government is instead pushing to have the China embargo lifted before Britain takes over the E.U. presidency in July. Apparently, there’s still enough shame left among the British that they’d prefer to have the continentals handle this dirty business.

But if the E.U. resumes trading arms to China, it will, in effect, become a full partner in the modernization of the People’s Liberation Army, already the most destabilizing trend in East Asia. By developing a large and growing fleet of ballistic and cruise missiles and submarines and acquiring Russian attack aircraft and destroyers, Beijing, with no external threat to its own security, is driving a new and extremely dangerous arms race in the Pacific.

The missing pieces of the PLA puzzle are exactly the sorts of command and control, communications, intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance systems that the Europeans are getting ready to sell. These are the same technologies that make the U.S. military so effective, having been developed initially for NATO operations. Lifting the embargo would thus mean that, in a future flare-up with Beijing such as the cross-straits crisis over Taiwan in 1996 or China’s 2001 downing of an American EP-3 surveillance aircraft, U.S. soldiers would find themselves going up against an adversary armed with NATO technology.

The immediate objective of the PLA’s modernization effort is the subjugation, either by intimidation or direct military action, of Taiwan. But the larger target is the United States and its position as the guarantor of freedom and stability in the region -- what the Chinese government calls American “hegemony.” Beijing wants to develop the military capacity to deter the United States and its regional allies from acting in Asia. Lifting the embargo will go a long way toward helping the Chinese reach that goal.

It’s hard to know at this point whether the Europeans are acting like fools or knaves in this drama. Chirac makes no secret of his dream of an E.U. that acts as a “counterweight” to American hyperpower, and he’s often able to convince Schroeder that what’s good for France is also good for Germany. On its own, Europe can do very little to balance the United States, as the experience of Iraq suggests, but it can accelerate the pace at which China may emerge to play that role.

Europe’s moribund defense industries desperately crave Chinese contracts. The continent’s own anemic national procurement programs are incapable of generating enough business to keep its arms-makers afloat, and new weapons sales in the Middle East are either hard to come by or snatched up by U.S. companies. Sales to China have sustained the rump of Russia’s defense industrial base, and, Europeans figure, might do the same for their own heavily subsidized defense contractors. There’s also the related matter of commercial airline sales to consider, as China cleverly plays America’s Boeing off against Europe’s Airbus in the battle to supply Beijing’s burgeoning air travel needs.

But in preparing to lift the embargo, the Europeans are failing to take into account the potential blowback from the United States. Their myopia is understandable, given that the White House has said little about the consequences of arms sales to Beijing -- Rice was certainly in no mood for confrontation during her recent trip. Not to mention that the Bush administration has made plenty of sunny pronouncements about the overall state of Sino-American relations; last November, then Secretary of State Colin Powell called them “the best in 30 years.”

In their haste to sell weapons to Beijing, however, the Europeans have inadvertently kick-started the debate in Washington about China’s intentions. The truth is that beneath the rosy rhetoric there remains a great deal of tension. Washington is suspicious of Beijing’s military buildup, unhappy with its weapons sales to places like Pakistan and Sudan, increasingly dissatisfied with its diplomacy toward North Korea and concerned about its human rights abuses. All these worries were subordinated as long as attention was focused on Iraq and the war on terrorism -— until the E.U. threatened to act.

Already, talk of a “China threat” is reemerging in the corridors of Congress, the Pentagon and inside the Bush administration. Testifying before Congress last week, the chiefs of both the CIA and the Defense Intelligence Agency issued warnings about Beijing’s growing militarization and what the DIA head called its “more assertive policies, especially with respect to Taiwan.” Despite a decade of engagement, China’s leadership is no more democratic today than it was after Tiananmen.

In the short term, ending the ban on trading arms to China is almost certain to undermine what transatlantic defense cooperation remains after the Cold War -- and there’s still quite a bit of it. The United States would have no choice but to assume that technology transfers to Europe would be likely to end up in Chinese hands. This should especially concern the British government, which has invested more than $2 billion in the $200-billion-plus Joint Strike Fighter program.

The long-term geostrategic implications are even more profound. European weapons in the hands of the PLA would help tip the balance in the Taiwan Strait against Taipei and pour fuel on smoldering Sino-Japanese relations. It’s ironic that a Europe that takes pride in having extracted itself from centuries of great power rivalries could now exacerbate precisely such tensions in the Pacific.

There is still time for sanity to prevail. President Bush has an opportunity this week to speak frankly about the costs and consequences of lifting the embargo. He should propose a U.S.-E.U. strategic dialogue to keep an eye on China’s threat to regional security and its human rights and proliferation records. Europe, in turn, would postpone its decision on the embargo as leaders from both sides work together to grapple with China’s rise. Opening such a dialogue will help preserve a translatlantic relationship based, as Rice put it, on the “values that unite us.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37089-2005Feb19.html

Jaakko is offline Jaakko
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Jan 2000
time: 07:22
  Old Post 22-02-2005 20:25
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That article broke my hypocrisy and self-righteousness meters both.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
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May 1999
time: 13:22
  Old Post 22-02-2005 20:28
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Got spare money?

Jaakko

pchang is offline pchang
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Aug 1999
time: 05:22
  Old Post 22-02-2005 20:28
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Suffering from ads?

Jaako would rather type in Chinese than English.

Jaakko is offline Jaakko
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Jan 2000
time: 07:22
  Old Post 22-02-2005 20:30
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quote:
Originally posted by pchang
Jaako would rather type in Chinese than English.


Yeah, maybe Chinese people can spell my name right.

pchang is offline pchang
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Aug 1999
time: 05:22
  Old Post 22-02-2005 20:32
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If you look at my name, you will see that clearly this is not the case.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:22
  Old Post 22-02-2005 20:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Jaakko
That article broke my hypocrisy and self-righteousness meters both.
That doesn't really explain why lifting the arms embargo is a good idea.

Jaakko is offline Jaakko
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Jan 2000
time: 07:22
  Old Post 22-02-2005 20:35
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quote:
Originally posted by pchang
If you look at my name, you will see that clearly this is not the case.


Dammit.

Jaakko is offline Jaakko
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Jan 2000
time: 07:22
  Old Post 22-02-2005 20:36
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
That doesn't really explain why lifting the arms embargo is a good idea.


Well, arms races do suck, but that article managed to transcend it all. It's really something spectacular.

pchang is offline pchang
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Aug 1999
time: 05:22
  Old Post 22-02-2005 20:37
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Jakko is tired of seeing the US dominate the world. He thinks China will be nicer.







Jaakkoo - the new Thebin

loinburger is offline loinburger
Emperor
Sweet Sauce Jones
Jul 1999
time: 00:22
  Old Post 22-02-2005 20:38 Visit loinburger's homepage!
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Despite the fact that a new cold war would probably help my career, I'd still rather that we didn't go through all that business again. My gut feeling is that it's going to be a lot more difficult to drive China into bankruptcy.

Jaakko is offline Jaakko
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Jan 2000
time: 07:22
  Old Post 22-02-2005 20:40
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quote:
Originally posted by pchang
Jakko is tired of seeing the US dominate the world. He thinks China will be nicer.







Jaakkoo - the new Thebin


China is going to dominate anyway, representing a fifth of the world's population. Their government at the moment is not a very nice one, but to think that preventing a multipolar world to preserve US supremacy is in anyone else's except the US' interests is just, well, stupid.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:22
  Old Post 22-02-2005 20:42
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quote:
Already, talk of a “China threat” is reemerging in the corridors of Congress, the Pentagon and inside the Bush administration


Blah blah blah. More American whining. Why should we care about what you want? You can't do anything to anyone anyway. Your mighty military is being held down in Iraq by a bunch of machine gun toting youths after all.

Lifting the arms embargo is a good idea for the Europeans because it no longer makes any sense for them to support it. China isn't going to attack them or do anything bad to them. Why should they care what the US thinks?

Will the US withdraw its troops from Europe? Oh please... let them..

See... self interest runs all ways.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:22
  Old Post 22-02-2005 20:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Jaakko
Well, arms races do suck, but ...
So you really had nothing to add to the discussion and actually agree with the main thrust of the article (lifting the embargo is a bad idea). I'm kind of curious what Spiffor and mindseye's feelings on the matter are.

pchang is offline pchang
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Aug 1999
time: 05:22
  Old Post 22-02-2005 20:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
Lifting the arms embargo is a good idea for the Europeans because it no longer makes any sense for them to support it. China isn't going to attack them or do anything bad to them.


Jaakko is offline Jaakko
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Jan 2000
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  Old Post 22-02-2005 20:48
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
So you really had nothing to add to the discussion and actually agree with the main thrust of the article (lifting the embargo is a bad idea). I'm kind of curious what Spiffor and mindseye's feelings on the matter are.


Actually I did - that article is just a masturbation material for pro-US idjits. My opposition to arms races is on principle. The hurt feelings of the US doesn't factor into it. Furthermore, thanks to the US' conduct lately, I will feel no small amount of schadenfreude when Europe does lift that embargo.

pchang is offline pchang
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Aug 1999
time: 05:22
  Old Post 22-02-2005 20:49
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Its not schadenfreude when its so out in the open

Jaakko is offline Jaakko
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Jan 2000
time: 07:22
  Old Post 22-02-2005 20:53
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quote:
Originally posted by pchang
Its not schadenfreude when its so out in the open


Is there another word for laughing at another's misfortune?

pchang is offline pchang
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Aug 1999
time: 05:22
  Old Post 22-02-2005 20:54
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My bad. I was under the impression that schadenfreude required some amount of concealment of the delight. Upon further inspection, I realize there is no such requirement. Delight away.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:22
  Old Post 22-02-2005 20:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Jaakko


Actually I did
I already said you had nothing of substance to add. There's no reason to keep proving me right. Now if you'd like to rise above the muck of Agathon's post perhaps you could tell me how lifting the embargo would be a good idea beyond the fact it would please you because you feel pissed at the US.

Jaakko is offline Jaakko
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Jan 2000
time: 07:22
  Old Post 22-02-2005 21:04
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The US getting cut down a couple of notches is a great benefit to the world. You guys are horribly incompetent at being a world policeman.

And like I said to pchang, preventing a multipolar world is not in anyone but the US' interests.

pchang is offline pchang
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Aug 1999
time: 05:22
  Old Post 22-02-2005 21:06
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Be careful what you wish for. Multipolar can easily be worse than unipolar. The key is the identity of the poles.

Jaakko is offline Jaakko
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Jan 2000
time: 07:22
  Old Post 22-02-2005 21:09
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I'm an ardent progressive.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
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Sep 2001
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  Old Post 22-02-2005 21:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Jaakko
China is going to dominate anyway, representing a fifth of the world's population.


That depends upon what the other 80% do especially India. Currently, the Chinese get weapons designs which are 90% as good as what the EU can sell from the Russians so the reality is these sales will help China but not as much as the China hawks are claiming. Taiwan has known it is long term ****ed since at least the mid-1980's but as long as they can maintain a creditable air and coastal defense they should be able to deter invasion.

pchang is offline pchang
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Aug 1999
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  Old Post 22-02-2005 21:55
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India's population growth is much higher than China's. If they start spending on weapons, watch out.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:22
  Old Post 22-02-2005 21:57 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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With allies like these . . .

Wezil is offline Wezil
King
Ontario, Canada
Nov 1999
time: 01:52
  Old Post 22-02-2005 21:58
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Perhaps Europe would be happier with China as the world's policeman?

Dis is offline Dis
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Feb 2000
time: 21:22
  Old Post 22-02-2005 22:10 Visit Dis's homepage!
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I support this. Even I realize the U.S. should not be the only power in the world. It's not healthy. and the EU doesn't count. They are like the minor leagues.

Who doesn't want to go back the glory days of the 60's when competition kept the U.S. at its best.

As a capitalist, I encourage competition.

Whoha is offline Whoha
King
The TOC is supposed to be classified guys...
Dec 2001
time: 23:22
  Old Post 22-02-2005 22:17
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The Chinese remember what the Europeans have done to them, and it will be quite suprising if this doesn't blow up in Europe's face. In any event this should end once and for all this silly notion that we should partner with Europe's defense industry in any way,shape,or form.

Pekka is offline Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:22
  Old Post 22-02-2005 22:21
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what kind of an idiot wrote that article .... but your brain-o-meters on folks, and let the fun times roll. I guess Einstein was right, people ARE stupid. Especially the one who wrote this one, and the people who nods their head the whole way and say 'YEAH THIS ISR IGHT!"1' NGhegh h lets' fat ousselves mor31

 
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