24-02-2005 22:59									#1
	Regent problems, some help appreciated... Tired of ads?

I've made my way up to regent, but I'm having problems on regent I always seem to be behind in the tech and wonders, I'm usually the persians always since they are scientific/industrial, and horsemen+immortals are very nice for taking down towns, since the immortals are so cheap to build (if you have iron). I usually always have to go the war-machine route since if I dont completely crush other civs on my continent they always come back to haunt me if I let them build up.

Is there anyway to take the pressure off? Is there somewhere I can learn to get things done faster? My use of specialists is pretty limited I usually have enough for one at each city or have the problem of no growth if I do make one.

I can't seem to find any info on just how good different governments are and what they change exactly except for support and 'knowing' your corruption is reduced a little bit. It seems if you have a massive civ you need communism ASAP or else you suffer massive production problems.

I'm using using C3C and the latest patch everyone is always out to attack me and they are always 'annoyed' to 'furious' with me. And the civilizations on the same contintent always have rights of passage which always makes it two against one since boths civs are opportunistic and out to get me since they see me expanding fiercly, I take out the first nearest civ 100% of the time. But that usually leaves one or two civs left to deal with and they usually go republic, is republic that good?

I usually have to keep despotism for a long time and forgo Monarchy and Republic in favor of producing units to keep myself from being conquered. I can win but its always a long hard fought battle on regent, I slowly take over an entire continent then I finally am able to switch governments.

Also I'd like to know how science is calculated since I always seem to have problems with civilizations getting 4-5 techs ahead of me.

	24-02-2005 23:47									#2
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Well, it's difficult in SP to screw up badly enough to lose in Warlord.

At Warlord level, the human has a 10% edge in faster techs and the AI has a 10% penalty in cost of building everything.

At Regent, it's even-stephen.

The Persians are great for war mongoling, peaceful building, and everything in between.

1 specialist per city is excessive. Your reducing your production of shields and food. They are more approative when you have a city stuck at size 6 that has no place it could place the last worker that would generate a shield.

The best practice for industrial players in Conquests is 1 native worker per city for most of the game. 3 slaves = 1 worker. Note that in very early game you can get by with your 1 worker if your busy REXing.

Under a non-commie govt, as you go further from the capital, the more corruption fighting technices you need. Under a commie govt, the more cities you own, the worse your total corruption is. Commie with SPHQ has lowest corruption for a large enough empire. (Yes, there's also mathemicaly an inversion point, but that is well past domination victory.)
However, communisms lower corruption does not ofset Republic/Democracy's extra trade arrows for science until the game is basically won.

Republic under both stock rules and the current AU mod is generally regarded as the best all around govt.

With conquests, staying Depostism instead of neither Monarchy / Republic is a valid tactic if you don't have rivers and are beelining to Fedualism with intention to switch, and more over are planning war mongoling. (As a scientific civ though, I'd also want Literature quickly)

And it is also a valid tactic if your planning on being Republic staying a Depot until you can afford Republic's costs via combo of aquaducts and market places.

I strongly suspect your problems is not having enough roads in your core plus as a scientific civ not building Libaries fast enough.

	25-02-2005 00:43									#3
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I would suggest that if you are not able to get wonders and stay at least even with techs at Regent, you are not using your emire to its best.

I am presuming you are not constantly playing with inferior start locations.

So why is it you are not able to get these things? It is likely to be that you are not using workers well and do not have enough.
Do you find you never have any new towns connected before they are build? How long after they are founded are they connected? The longer it takes, the more it shows you do not have enough workers.

While still in the BC times, how often do you open your cities view? Do you see citizens on tiles that have no improvements?
No roads, no mines? Do you tend to have very few mines in the first 150 turns?

I do not see any need for any specialist in the first 150 turns, in any cities. Well at least it should be rare at Regent.

Do you create any pumps at all? More than one? When your early cities (first 3 or 4) have bonus food, do they get granaries fairly soon or at least a couple cities?

Are you getting contacts with all civs before the Ai? Do you make some tech deals and time them do get your deal with all known civs. IOW do not trade them when they ask for a deal, unless you know they are the only ones missing it or they do not know any that are?

Once you go to war, do you make a swift and brutal assault? Do you try to hold every city you conquer, no matter where it is located or how large?

Are you making solid choices in your tech tree and managing the slide?

Post a save so we can see what is going on, we will get you to kick the ai's butt in short order.

BTW do not feel you have to take Persia, I am not a big fan of theirs anyway. I do not care for scientific trait as it does not help in the first age and only once for the first two (omitting SGL's).

	25-02-2005 01:06									#4
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Dr. vmxa1 speaks.

xts3 you should probably post a save file in this thread of where you are currently in the game (and if you have it maybe a save file from near the beginning). Then people can give you specific help based on your game.

	25-02-2005 01:09									#5
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Or babbles as is not uncommon.

	25-02-2005 01:24									#6
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Post saves from your start, 1000BC, and 10BC.

I suspect we will uncover some other issues, including city placement, tile improvement/usage, too many defenders, etc.

Welcome aboard, x!!

	25-02-2005 01:25									#7
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Pumps aren't even needed at the Regent or even the Monarch level. They help at any level, yes, but aren't really estinal until Emperor.

	25-02-2005 11:26									#8
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Well I've taken the game really late by now... my earliest save is probably in the 1000-1300 AD somewhere. But here is one of my earlier saves from my game right now.

Attachment: this one-2----xerxes of the persians, 1200 ad.zip
This has been downloaded 7 time(s).

	25-02-2005 18:47									#9
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You are making the usual beginner mistakes, nothing that can't be improved.

You need:
- to place you cities closer together (you can still squeeze 2 more citites around you capital for example)
- To use your luxury slider !!!!!
- Don't irrigate grassland while in despotism, you won't get any bonus!!
- try not to get a golden age while in despostism (some like it, I don't. )
- don't bother with those towers, their advantage doesn't warrant their cost. Thanks for building them though, I had never seen one before, took me a minute to figure out what they were.

	25-02-2005 21:19									#10
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Just a brief look, but some obvious issues. Oh I never seen towers before either, not worth making IMO.

You have only found your neighbor and have not even tried any suicide runs. Have not even circumnavigated your land mass. Its 1200AD.

No wonders at all in Regent? Some KAI's are looming up.

One city in disorder.

Workers on mountain and planting trees with better things to do and you are in GA, so you want mines for the extra shield.

A few cities have no or only one mine.

Immortals and Pikes and even LB being built in cities with no barracks and those are obsolete units anyway. Surely you do not want to make any attackers after warriors without a barracks.

At least one of those builds is in a town of size 3.

One town of size 3 and not growing has 3 workers mostly planting trees? This is not effective use of workers at this point, forget that town, it is not even growing.

The real killer is many cities are not growing and they could.
Look at Boston. It is not growing at size 5 and is making a couthouse. One citizen is a scientist. I would not have a sci, unless I am at zero research.

It has a lib and a wall? No walls at Regent please, surely not on a town located in a safe place. I am not found of libs in small towns, but it is debatable.

Consider that if that specalist was working a tile, you could have that temple up and not worry about happiness. You could get an aqua built. Chop those forest and get it growing.

Silks not hooked up and no one is working on it.

Ghulaman needs a temple to get its borders expanded so it can use that fish.

Hamadan needs the same to reach that oasis, which needs to be improved.

I would like to have seen a city founded on top of the silk in the jungle next to the river. Now we cleared one tile and get silks after we have the road laid.

I would have prefered to gather those workers in the jungle into a team and get the road done.

Don't work mountains until you have the easy stuff done, except to get a resource.

	25-02-2005 22:19									#11
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

VMXA1,

I only make towers with captive workers since captive workers are like 3 times as slow at doing stuff making them all but useless. Thats why you see those 'towers' heh.

So I'm not building my cities close together enough then? is an optimum, how many squares should overlap between cities?

Also the reason I didn't explore was because in that game you see there was ANOTHER civ I wasted a lot of time killing and plus the other two on the continent it was 3 versus one so it was "do or die" and thats why you see some units being produced without a barracks because you can use regular immortals versus spearmen and not get nuked without a barracks.

Last edited by xts3 on 25-02-2005 at 22:25

	25-02-2005 23:47									#12
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by xts3 VMXA1, I only make towers with captive workers since captive workers are like 3 times as slow at doing stuff making them all but useless. Thats why you see those 'towers' heh. So I'm not building my cities close together enough then? is an optimum, how many squares should overlap between cities? Also the reason I didn't explore was because in that game you see there was ANOTHER civ I wasted a lot of time killing and plus the other two on the continent it was 3 versus one so it was "do or die" and thats why you see some units being produced without a barracks because you can use regular immortals versus spearmen and not get nuked without a barracks.

Slaves are half normal speed, so rwo equals one natvie and they are free of maint. Never get rid of them is a good way to go. Those 4 slaves (now towers) could have done a lot of work in a 1000 years at no cost, you can't beat that.

I did not notice the spacing, but CxxC should be fine. Of course you will have to slide on that due to terrian and such from time to time.

I saw that the Americans were killed, probably by you as you have Boston and they are gone. There is a cost to early warfare, you just have to make it pay. A stronger empire should cover it.

Get a curragh out and let them go until they are sunk. Get a couple of gallies out, if you have not found everyone at that point.

I am not concerned about how many civs are about, it is Regent, so they are not going to be superior. You are making it easy on them by building units that are not vets.

Me I am not a big fan of Immortals as they have no defense. My experiece with them and against them is not all that positive. No matter what units they attack, they can lose. Having one more HP could make the difference.

So basicaly you had the best unit in the early game and should have been able to handle the AI. In fact they would be very hesitant to go to war with your having Immortals. You would have to be weak compared to them and that is a no no for less than expert players. By that I mean those that have played so much they already know how things will play out and hence can take risk.

Look at it like a top Holdem player, they can see a flop with lessor starting hands, because they will out play you after the flop. So if you are not familar with how the AI will behave, do not become weak compared to them, they will attack or demand.

Once you master managing your empire, you will find that having 2 or 3 civs on your land mass at Regent means you get leaders and free cities and workers.

	26-02-2005 00:17									#13
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xts3, you wil usually want early contacts. If you know a civ, all techs they learned are cheaper for you to research. Also, they might know technologies your closer neighbours did not learn yet, so you get to trade and benefit. By having contacts, you might be able to sign favorable alliances against your closer neighbours. As soon as there is a trade route, you will be able to trade resources and luxuries. You neglect all those things by keeping to your small piece of land.

You want to be making Veteran units as soon as possible. They get better battle results, so the invested production comes back many times in reduced casualties. Also, your units start out a step closer to being Elite, where they get the ability to spawn Great Leaders.

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Me I am not a big fan of Immortals as they have no defense and cost a lot more than swords. No matter what units they attack, they can lose. Having one more HP could make the difference.

Uh, the shield cost is the same for Immortals and for Swords. Did you mean the cost of an early GA, or the civ traits, or ...?

	26-02-2005 02:17									#14
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Sorry I thought they were 40 shields. Deleted that reference. Yes I do not care for any very early UU unless isolated or at a low level, were you can avoid using them. No need to trigger a real early GA. Notice I did not say despotic, I just want to have a fair number of cities and mines, regardless of the government.

	26-02-2005 03:51									#15
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Modo44 xts3, you wil usually want early contacts. If you know a civ, all techs they learned are cheaper for you to research. Also, they might know technologies your closer neighbours did not learn yet, so you get to trade and benefit. By having contacts, you might be able to sign favorable alliances against your closer neighbours. As soon as there is a trade route, you will be able to trade resources and luxuries. You neglect all those things by keeping to your small piece of land. You want to be making Veteran units as soon as possible. They get better battle results, so the invested production comes back many times in reduced casualties. Also, your units start out a step closer to being Elite, where they get the ability to spawn Great Leaders. Uh, the shield cost is the same for Immortals and for Swords. Did you mean the cost of an early GA, or the civ traits, or ...?

Ok well I re-did the map again from scratch. I never try to curragh or galley to other civs because they usually always bought the dust before they reach anotehr civ across the ocean, but I'll heed your advice and start doing that.

I still think I have some fundamental problems though, I seem to grow the empire too fast by attacking and then can't collect enough money due to corruption. I'll post my latest game here, you'll see some of the same problems obviously. I'm probably going too nuts on units but when I go to war I want to completely make sure I'm wiping out the other civ. I also seem to dangle cities that have huge production problems as I dont have the money to afford courthouses, but I guess I should disband some units into those cities for shields.

Below is the new game - 800AD.

	26-02-2005 06:03									#16
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I would say it is a bit better, especially the mines. That said, I would capture Seattle for the silks. BTW it is the location I mentioned before.

It should not autoraze as it is the capitol, but it will grow in 2 turns, so it is not an issue.

Boston is in disorder, never let this happen. This city epitomizes the problems you are seeing. It is building a lib and if you only get 3 breakers and those are due to the specialist. Now if it had a temple, you could be using the specailist to get production.

You have not used the forest to rush builds and one slave is minning on the hill and still has 22 turns to go. Mountains and hills should not be worked until you have nothing else to do or they have a real need. This could be to allow connection or travel in a town that has no other tiles. It could be for a resource or a lux. Wait until you have more workers and then tackle the hills, except maybe in the capitol.

Ghulaman worker minning in a size 1 town working on a worker? It does not need a mine on a tundra tile all that bad. The forest tile is fine and you can use the worker for soemthing else.

Sun Tzu is a lost cause. If you drop in an embassy you will see Mayans will beat you by 10 turns right now. They will likely extend that lead. Make a realist evaluation of your power and chances before going after a wonder.

You want a wonder, get the city to size 10 or better. I would have mined 10 or more tiles, depending on how much food I could generate. Once I had 24 food, I would mine all the other tiles and I would add those workers into the city after they finished their job. Boom size 10-12 and a wonder maker.

Start as big of a prebuild as you think you need and make the wonder. At least get a few turns of a pre.

I would like a city xxxc from Antioch, next to the river. Probably roomfor others as well.

Tyre making a habor, but I would rather see a market here. You do not need a harbor as you have many tiles next to a river for food. You do not need a harbor for ship build, at least at this time, in this game.

I did not look at all the cities, but just up your control of the buids a bit and manage those workers a little more. Try to plan their work to save movement as much as you can. If you can save 2 moves at a 1 move per turn for each of say 15 workers in a 100 turn set, that is a lot of work that could be done.

	26-02-2005 11:37									#17
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quote: You want to be making Veteran units as soon as possible. They get better battle results,

While essentialy true, this is - IMHO - something you need to let go once you get to higher level games, IE anything beyond emperor.
At that point you simply can't - at least I can't - just build barracks everywhere.
What you can do however is use them as best as you can and make veterans out of them so they will last for centuries(especially true for upgradable defense units which have a low chance of spawning a leader anyway).
so, build offensive units in cities with barracks and defensive units in thse that don't(if you need too!!).

	26-02-2005 23:41									#18
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quote: Originally posted by alva quote: You want to be making Veteran units as soon as possible. They get better battle results, While essentialy true, this is - IMHO - something you need to let go once you get to higher level games, IE anything beyond emperor. At that point you simply can't - at least I can't - just build barracks everywhere.

This works for all but the most extreme conflicts: You only need Barracks in cities, that produce units. You can leave MP units out of this, but all that will be fighting should be Veterans. Specialize, by producing those units in chosen cities with Barracks. Often a few core cities are enough to get started, especially if your wars are short. Cities without Barracks can be used for adding some bombard units.

If you go on a warmongering tour, you need Barracks almost everywhere. In this case, you want them for upgrades and healing, not only for unit production.

quote: Originally posted by alva What you can do however is use them as best as you can and make veterans out of them so they will last for centuries(especially true for upgradable defense units which have a low chance of spawning a leader anyway). so, build offensive units in cities with barracks and defensive units in thse that don't(if you need too!!).

Yes, you can "make" Veterans. The problem is, you will lose many Regulars this way. Try a test - build only Veteran attackers, and when war happens, count the wins you had with 1 HP left (including new 2HP Elites!). Those units would be dead Regulars, if produced without Barracks. Also, the higher the experience level, the higher the chance of the unit retreating succesfully, if it is a fast-mover.

I think vmxa should tell you how and why he wins games on Sid. Might be he did the Regular vs Veteran test a couple times.

	27-02-2005 01:23									#19
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Well I am firmly in the camp of no troops without a barracks after the very earlist part of the game.

Of course on sid you cannot even beat barbs with regulars. I lose vet swords and horses too often as it is without using regs.

IOW you will not be getting any free vets to speak of at sid. I am not even talking about large numbers of barbs, just one on one. I hesitate to even send out horses as vets to attack. This is why I like UU's like mounted warrior. They can get the job done most of the time.

Chief bonus vs barbs 800, deity and sid zero. That is a huge change.

In games at say Monarch, you can find ai's with units that are not as good as yours to get promotion, but after that it is not so common. So yes sending those MI or Knights to whack spears and archers is going to work just fine most of the time. No so often if it is equals and you have regs and they have vets or elites.

	28-02-2005 19:06									#20
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quote: Originally posted by xts3 I'm probably going too nuts on units but when I go to war I want to completely make sure I'm wiping out the other civ.

I don't reccomend this. Especially before Cavalry, you shouldn't be hellbent on wiping out a civ in one war. If you're just declaring war to take a city with a certain resource/lux, you don't need to risk your units attacking other cities. Often, you can extort cash/cities etc if you can bring the AI to the bargaining table.

	28-02-2005 20:55									#21
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Depends upon the situation, but yes if they have techs you don't at the very least let them keep one city [realtively worthless] for 20 turns in exchange for giving you some/all their techs.