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DanS
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Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:22
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quote:
Please explain then the conditions of agriculture in the "fertile crescent"- the fact that large swaths of its are desert, or too salty for things to grow well is a result of 9000 years of Human use, and with nunbers far smaller than any we have today. |
It's ridiculous to compare ancient societies to ours. In most part, we can see what's happening and make corrections. If we overshoot the mark without making corrections, we can diversify to resources in other areas while we remediate.
But in any event, agriculture is some 1% of our economy, while it was a majority of the economy in ancient times in all countries.
Last edited by DanS on 26-02-2005 at 22:10
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:22
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quote:
Originally posted by DanS
It's ridiculous to compare ancient societies to ours. In most part, we can see what's happening and make corrections. If we overshoot the mark without making corrections, we can diversify to resources in other areas while we remediate.
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Excuse me Dan, but some of these problems HAVE NO CORRECTIONS, specially using water from aquifers-there is no way to replenish that water in less than a few centuries. The Us is a modern, rich state, yet soild degredation is increasing in many parts of the country, due to simple biology, and the demands of commercial farming.
quote:
But in any event, agriculture is some 1% of our economy, while it was a majority of the economy in ancient times in all countries. |
And yet, our eocnomy is mo much fantasitcally bigger that the effect of our agriculture is still much more significant in those areas we still farm.
That said, huge overconsumption by Americans means we could cut back and still live fine, healthy lives, but then that would limit profist, now wouldn't it?
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DanS
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Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:22
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BS. I am from a rural area and I am appalled that there is less than 1% of the original tallgrass prairie, and not a damn thing can be done about it because farmers have a lot of political power via the Senate, and the majority vote Republican. |
Don't get me wrong. I agree that subsidies distort the agricultural market. But for our purposes here, it is sufficient to note that if the "natural" process were allowed to run its course, large swaths of the Midwest would be uneconomical to farm, and would revert to the wild.
This is despite the fact that our population has doubled within the last 50 years (and I would bet that not much tall grass prairie has been destroyed within the last 50 years). It's clear that not even our agricultural resources are finite.
Last edited by DanS on 26-02-2005 at 22:41
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fdgfx
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We have only used up a tiny fraction of available resources and people are complaining about running out of them.
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General Ludd
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Minion of the Dominion
Aug 2001
time: 05:22
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quote:
Originally posted by DanS
Don't get me wrong. I agree that subsidies distort the agricultural market. But for our purposes here, it is sufficient to note that if the "natural" process were allowed to run its course, large swaths of the Midwest would be uneconomical to farm, and would revert to the wild.
This is despite the fact that our population has doubled within the last 50 years (and I would bet that not much tall grass prairie has been destroyed within the last 50 years). It's clear that not even our agricultural resources are finite. |
Where do these "infinite resources" come from, exactly? Oh yes... because if we have it now, we can only have more of it in the future! The favorite fantasy of economists; endless, limitless, and exponential growth of everything...
Here's David Suzuki's take on this, since I happened to be reading this just last week:
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The effect of human activity on soil did not begin with modern mechanized agriculture ... But it was the invention of agriculture that altered the rate and scope of change, and in the second half of the twentieth century the techniques of modern industrial farming, such as the use of heavy machinery, irrigation and the extensive use of chemical fertilizers, have had a devastating impact on the soil. Modern techniques have increasd productivity per hectare, but the organic material produced is not returned to the soil to complete nature's cycle; instead, it often ends up in sewers, landfills or incinerators.
The incredible increase in Earth's human population in the past fifty years has been matched by a similiar increase in agricultural productivity. But this productivity has been achieved by deliberately overriding the natural limits of the soil and the living system that makes the soil so productive. According to Nobel Prize winner Henry Kendall and the population biologist David Pimentel, modern farming methods now deplete topsoil... 16 to 300 times faster than it can be replaced. Worldwide soil erosion has caused farmers to abandon about 430 million hectares of arable land during the last 40 years, an area equivalent to about one-third of all present cropland.
It takes an average of 500 years to build 2.5 centimetres of topsoil. Today, Pimentel says, the global loss of topsoil exceeds new soil production by 23 billion tonnes a year, which is 0.7 percent of the world's soil. At that rate, when my fourteen-year-old daughter reaches her sixtieth birthday, more than 30 per cent of the world's current supplies of topsoil will be gone, but humankind's numbers will have doubled.
Earth's diverse living things cleanse, alter and regenerate air, water and soil - elements they help to create and depend on absolutely. Yet now one species out of untold millions had commandeered almost half the planet's soil. According to Dr. Bernard Campbell, we humans "either use, coopt or destroy 40% of the estimated 100 bilion tons of organic matter produced annualy by the terrestrial ecosystem." By this means we drive many other organisms who are keeping the planet habitable to extinction. |
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Wycoff
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Originally posted by chegitz guevara What do you mean, "as far as it goes?" Do you people not see the environmental devestation around you? Do you honestly think that we can keep growing forever? |
We're not going to grow forever. The worldwide rate of population growth has gradually slowed. Population predictions have been shrinking. China appears to be entering the in the 4th stage of development (sorry, I forget the exact terminology), where population rates drop permenantly. That's the same thing that has happened in all developed countries.
India will reach this point as well. I suspect that we'll reach the peak of human population by 2050-2100. After that, every nation on earth will have a declining birthrate.
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26-02-2005 22:00
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