26-02-2005 18:46									#1
	My last big hurdle: Specialist only bases. Tired of ads?

I've only been playing a year but I feel I've become a quite competent player due to reading this forum extensively. I've overcome all the early newbie habits like aversion to free market, 2/3 square base spacing and failure to capitalise on the excellance of supply crawlers.

I've played a lot of games with different styles but I have yet to sucessfully used specialist only bases, especially as part of ICS. From reading previous years I can understand why they are good but not how to arrive at the situation where you have them.

If anyone could enlighten me through explanation or through a series of savegames I would be very greatful.

	26-02-2005 19:27									#2
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The simplist example is: (1) Found a base (2) Turn the worker into a doctor (3) Poof, you've got a specialist base....no drone riots ever, even with bombers homed there while running Free Market.

	27-02-2005 01:13									#3
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1econ, 1lab and 2 psych per turn. Sheer genius.

	28-02-2005 01:53									#4
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I understand the theory, I haven't practiced it (much).

Crawl nuts to a base, turn everyone but a few into specialists, pop boom to hab limits.
I'd imagine if you can't pop boom with Demo/Planned, you would want to intiiate a GA pop boom to get the city up to size as quickly as possible, so you'll have to maintain a core set of workers for a few turns, balancing specialists with talents.
I've seen a significant increase in cash/labs when I have done this.

	28-02-2005 14:00									#5
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I could show that to you, but Im afraid that the only such savegames I have is PBEM and most not at the starting stages of game.

However I could transfer you a game where Gaians are having 1-3 workers per base and ~10 specialists per base per average.

The easiest way to do it is:
1.Have Gaians
2.Have WP
3.As soon as WP is in place start slowly building condensers/boreholes
4.As soon as you have clean reactors pump out quite a bunch of formers and form the remaining non Condenser/Borehole squares into latter.

The resulting pattern should be something like:

BHBHBH
CCCCCC
BHBHBH
CCCCCC
BHBHBH
CCCCCC

B = Base
H = Hole
C = Condenser

Crawl C, work H.

Each base has 2*4 + 3 = 11 nuts (=5 citizens, 1 worker, 4 specs)
6+2 = 8 mins
6+(?) energy (apart from that of specs)


The miracles of such layout are:

1.Put a SAM copter so it can cover 9 bases (inculding home), so noone can drop in.

2.Crawlers block the entrance of land units

3.You can cash in the 2 crawlers for each base to make/prototype a Chopper in 1 turn. Having 30 bases will almost make you winner in a surprise!

4.And the last and final - put a Flechette defense in each base and no Missile/PB will land! (each base has 9 FDs covering it which means 100%/2^9 = 0.2% chance to hit!)

	28-02-2005 15:23									#6
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I've rarely needed to build bases that are completely specialist bases, though most of the time I build bases that are majority specialist, often very heavily tilted to specialists. The methods differ depending on what stage of the game I'm in. Typically I will only work high value tiles which produce multiple FOP types, like boreholes or kelp / tidals.

If I need to GA I'll not have more specialists than workers. Typically I'll need crawled nuts, especially before satellite production. The best tiles for this are either condensor / farms or forest w hybrid forests. Later on the condensor / farms / soil enricher wins out. Crawling sea nutrients becomes really viable once you get fusion, at which point sea crawlers become cheap.

One you can build all the sattelite types there is little reason (other than commerce) to use workers again. All you need are crawled nuts to build huge bases which produce immense energy equivalents via specialists, as well as raw energy and mins multiplied by whatever production boosting facilities you have.

	28-02-2005 18:00									#7
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Yeah, and remember - specialists are not affected by efficency!

	01-03-2005 01:18									#8
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binTravkin: If you have any savegames at it would help me greatly. I'm having trouble making the maths of specialist bases add up in my head and seeing a good example would help. I don't mind if its PBEM, as long as the game has finished of course and you don't use the password for other currently running games.

Would you start out with 1 square base spacing or do you begin with the standard 3 square and fill in the gaps later when you make a decision to ICS? I also assume you're using the Lower Terrain command to fit all those boreholes in?

	01-03-2005 01:23									#9
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quote: Originally posted by binTravkin Yeah, and remember - specialists are not affected by efficency!

Lab and econ output are unaffected by global efficiency losses true enough but WILL be affected by allocational imbalance efficiency loss.

	01-03-2005 02:45									#10
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Realistically, your bases and boreholes won't be so neatly aligned, especially early in the game.

	01-03-2005 07:54									#11
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And if you snag some SPs, you may not even be able to switch over to 1x1 ICS later on.

	01-03-2005 12:16									#12
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quote: Lab and econ output are unaffected by global efficiency losses true enough but WILL be affected by allocational imbalance efficiency loss.

Just how wrong you are..

See, basically there are 2 types of specialists, one of which gives you +3 labs, the other +3 econ and they're not affected by sliders and are sliders themselves because you can easily switch from one to another and have a full steam on research or vice versa.

This effectively eliminates any "+4 efficency bonus" if there ever was considered one as each and every faction can execute it with less or more effort (easiest faction to do it - Gaians as they can be in a state of permanent popboom for all the mid->late game).

quote: binTravkin: If you have any savegames at it would help me greatly. I'm having trouble making the maths of specialist bases add up in my head and seeing a good example would help. I don't mind if its PBEM, as long as the game has finished of course and you don't use the password for other currently running games.

I will overlook my archives and make a save at the start of turn for you, so you don't need to know my password.

quote: Would you start out with 1 square base spacing or do you begin with the standard 3 square and fill in the gaps later when you make a decision to ICS? I also assume you're using the Lower Terrain command to fit all those boreholes in?

I start with ICS1x1 and continue it all the game except for the Pirates (in which case I seek for base spots which contain 2 min bonuses in a base radius and are at least 3 tiles from the cost, so artillery can't reach em).

The grid looks somewhat like a cheese in the start because I do not try to put bases in fungus/rocky squares, not talking about monoliths. I just try to put the bases so they correspond to the grid (which I make up in first turn and which mostly depends on the 1st bases' location).

Later when I have the former horde up I can cover almost all base places in grid. If there's a monolith it only makes a nice exclusion in the regular grid which allows 1-3 of your nearest bases grow faster and to greater pop (so you can build some energy multiplying facilities in them and have them as main research/econ are till you get other bases up as well.

	02-03-2005 11:34									#13
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quote: Originally posted by binTravkin Just how wrong you are.. See, basically there are 2 types of specialists, one of which gives you +3 labs, the other +3 econ and they're not affected by sliders and are sliders themselves because you can easily switch from one to another and have a full steam on research or vice versa. This effectively eliminates any "+4 efficency bonus" if there ever was considered one as each and every faction can execute it with less or more effort (easiest faction to do it - Gaians as they can be in a state of permanent popboom for all the mid->late game).

Bin, please don't attempt to lecture me on something I pretty much introduced to this community. While librarians and technicians in the early game contribute +3 to lab and econ respectively the sweet spot times are when one gets engineers for +2 and +3 ( 5 effective points) If one attempts slider manipulation then, one will surely lose points when running sub paradigm efficiency. Certainly one can decide to run librarians and or thinkers at this stage it just would be fallacy to give up the considerable econ to do so.

So unless you are running an entire empire of all specialist only bases, then as you suggest efficiency doesn't even come into play as one simply allocates specialists appropriately. More often though most people run some specialist only bases with any number of conventional bases. In these cases, slider settings and sub paradigm efficiency come into play especially when engineers are allowed as they become rapidly the preferred specialist until transcendi (late late game).

	03-03-2005 01:50									#14
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Today I tried ICSing with Morgan and have been incompletely sucessful. I started well enough, getting the WP by hook and crook (I had to disband defenders and sell techs to raise the money to hurry. I then had a bad point when I was surrounded by believers (running fundy, so buying their units wasn't an option) who had stolen all Cycon and PK tech and were a serious threat. Although I had lots of money and won through by hurrying and upgrading I wonder if I could have done better.

The typical state of my 18 odd bases at this time (I forget what date, but I hadn't lifted mineral restrictions yet) was 2 citizens each, one worker one doctor and recycling tanks. I was making techs every 8 turns, but on Free Market would have made techs every 4 turns. My Q: should I have built recreation commons and gone free market/wealth or simply stuck with one worker and a Simple economy until I'd uncovered the tech for specialists and could make really productive bases?

In essence, what facilities do you build?

	03-03-2005 03:37									#15
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To ICS with Morgan, you really need to pump your econ rating, to make small bases worthwhile. Rec commons are one of the few facilities I place in every base, and they're worth every mineral. For the investment of one tech, 4 mineral rows, and 1 EC/turn, you get to ignore two drones or superdrones.

	03-03-2005 06:31									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Senethro My Q: should I have built recreation commons and gone free market/wealth or simply stuck with one worker and a Simple economy until I'd uncovered the tech for specialists and could make really productive bases?

With a Fundy Miriam, I would not choose to prosecute a Vendetta under Wealth, because I wouldn't be able to buy her superior troops, and my troops would probably lose, unless I had 2:1 attack:defense edge. I'd probably go Fundy, Free, Survival, maybe knowledge if her probes are nowhere in sight. Power is never a good choice that early.

Rec commons are a must for Morgan after the first b-drone, b/c you can't afford the mineral support for police.
Also, don't forget, as Morgan, armored probes can be decent defenders in a pinch. I typically expand to first b-drones warnning, get rec-tanks, then expand again, lather, rinse and repeat. If I know I'm alone, I'll forego rec-tanks until 2nd b-drone warrning.

Edit: clarified Vendetta under Wealth w/ Morgan.

	03-03-2005 08:28									#17
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I ususally get Ind Eco first, then FM after that. But then, I'm not the greatest of players, so... it's just my 2e.c.

	03-03-2005 12:52									#18
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You got WP, that was your mistake. If you got HGP instead you'd have 2 worker bases -> at least 30% more production.

At times of war either build 1 punishment sphere and rehome units to it or switch to Police/Green/Wealth - an awesome approach: gives you police, support, native life and is still +2 econ and +1 industry.

	03-03-2005 17:59									#19
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quote: Originally posted by binTravkin You got WP, that was your mistake. If you got HGP instead you'd have 2 worker bases -> at least 30% more production.

It's never a mistake to get WP, just a different choice. Maybe not a choice you or I would make, but it is still valid. Before clean comes along, having WP will allow him to field a fewer number of formers, which will conservehis resources. Also, he may not have had a choice about which SP to get. I remember in one game Lal built HGP by 2138, but I imagine he had a lot of luck in popping pods for AAs.

	03-03-2005 18:29									#20
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2138 is not so good actually, if unless an AI player..

I think it was mistake, because formers are not so crucial at start - just go forest&forget and you need very little formers.
At least HGP would ensure he'd not be "conserving" resources, but outputting lot more.

Normally you should get HGP in early 30s, so noone grabs it before you. Morgan is quite good for b-lining to IA, so there's not so big chance someone else will grab HGP. PTS is completely different case however..
HGP only needs 6 crawlers which are pretty easiy to build (an average base can do it in 4-5 yrs with some hurrying, so 5 yrs after IA you should start HGP and finish in the next turn).

If you were lucky and popped a good instabuild pod/AA, you can build it even earlier.

In Girls Night In game Shawnmcc (best PBEMer I've played against) had built HGP + WP by 2130 (IIRC) by rapid pod popping.

	03-03-2005 19:40									#21
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quote: Originally posted by binTravkin 2138 is not so good actually, if unless an AI player..

Actually, it was an AI, and I laid a bit of a trap for you here. I didn't specifically state that it was AI, and I didn't say what kind of rules I started the game with: Blind-TechStag.

quote: I think it was mistake, because formers are not so crucial at start - just go forest&forget and you need very little formers. At least HGP would ensure he'd not be "conserving" resources, but outputting lot more.

How many formers depends on whether there's abundant wildlife, clearing fungus is a turn intensive job, and will seriously hamper expansion until more formers are brought to bear. If I'm Morgan, my biggest goal is to eradicate fungus to prevent worms coming at me if I'm going to run an early FM. I know I won't have Trance for quite a while, until after I've built all the SP's I can build.

We don't even know that he had a choice/chance to get WP. Saying it was a mistake without knowing the particulars of the game isn't constructive. He doesn't get an understanding of how to handle his situation he's currently in. I know what I can do when I get the HGP, when I don't, then I have to improvise, or research alternatives, which he's doing. Saying you should've built HGP instead only serves to discount all his choices leading up to this point in the game. My point is forget about the past, you can't fix it, let's look at what we can do now and salvage the future game.

quote: Normally you should get HGP in early 30s, so noone grabs it before you. Morgan is quite good for b-lining to IA, so there's not so big chance someone else will grab HGP. PTS is completely different case however.. HGP only needs 6 crawlers which are pretty easiy to build (an average base can do it in 4-5 yrs with some hurrying, so 5 yrs after IA you should start HGP and finish in the next turn).

Are you lecturing me about beelining to AI? I really don't need the lecture, and would argue that the bulk of readers don't need it unless they specifically ask for it.
FYI, one game, I had a hoard of cash from early pod popping, discovered IA, switched to Wealth, rushed crawlers in all my nearby bases and had HGP in 2 turns. So, what? I only say this to emphasize the fact that we don't know enough about the conditions of this game, and given the information we have, what would we do? I made an assumption (just as you did) that the HGP was NOT available, you assumed it was. Given the choice of building WP or HGP, I would generally build HGP, but, if I'm on a landmass by myself, I might pick WP instead and expand like fungus. IF I was in Senethro's position, and had HGP available and Miriam breathing down my neck, I would build HGP over WP, no doubt.

quote: If you were lucky and popped a good instabuild pod/AA, you can build it even earlier.

Indeed! Luck has a lot to do with it and luck runs a continuum throughout the game from initial placement (hey, I'm in garland crater to start, woo hoo to I'm 5 squares away from Great Dunes, lord help me) to pod popping (I popped 20 AAs this game or I popped 20 pods with more than one worm, 15 of which were 8 worm swarms).

quote: In Girls Night In game Shawnmcc (best PBEMer I've played against) had built HGP + WP by 2130 (IIRC) by rapid pod popping.

Good for him. Again, this is a fair amount of luck, and what would've happened in that game if pods had been disabled?
Luck is something I hope for, but never count on.

Bottom line, we both made some assumptions. However, I attempted to provide advice on what Senethro should do know based on where he's at, while you provided advice on fixing the past, doing it over. I'm sure, that given the chance, he'd do things differently (as you suggested), but that's hindsight, and everyone has 20/20 hindsight.