28-02-2005 01:22									#1
	Looking for info on pantheistic trends in the Jewish, Buddhist, and Taoist religions Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I am changing the thesis to my paper. It will now be something like: "Spiritual experiences lead most mystics to be pantheistic."

I will use examples of the Sufis, who believe that all things are God adorned in a garmet, Angelus Silesius, a 17th century Christian mystic who denied the personal God of his religion, and the Hindus, who believe that all things are different manifestations of Brahman. That leaves the Jewish, Buddhist, and Taoist religions. I need examples of pantheistic beliefs in the mystics of these religions. Can anyone help?

	28-02-2005 01:30									#2
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Check the early history of the hebrew, they were not the monotheists until later after the 2 views battled it out and the monos won.

	28-02-2005 01:34									#3
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Buddhism is definitely pantheistic. Taoism I'm not quite sure what they believe in.

	28-02-2005 01:47									#4
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Pick a different thesis.

	28-02-2005 01:50									#5
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Classical or natural? You'd likely find classical trends in Judaism+Kabbalah (esp. pre-Hezekiah) and Hinduism. Wikipedia says monoism too, but I disagree, since Monoism itself would preclude pantheism.

	28-02-2005 03:33									#6
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quote: Buddhism is definitely pantheistic. Taoism I'm not quite sure what they believe in.

Well then I need some Buddhist writings to support that. Do you know where I could find some?

quote: Pick a different thesis.

No, this one will work.

quote: Classical or natural? You'd likely find classical trends in Judaism+Kabbalah (esp. pre-Hezekiah) and Hinduism. Wikipedia says monoism too, but I disagree, since Monoism itself would preclude pantheism.

Anything. What I would prefer is to have some Kabbalistic writings that sound pantheistic or at least acknowledge divinity in the world around them, in everyday things.

I also would like to find some more writings from Christian mystics that are similar, because I only have one author for that.

	28-02-2005 06:38									#7
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Taoism is essentially atheistic. But the god that they don't have is in everything.

	28-02-2005 10:52									#8
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Why can't I be God? Why does God get to be God and not me? Is that fair?

	28-02-2005 10:59									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat Taoism is essentially atheistic. But the god that they don't have is in everything.

I was waiting for someone else to respond first.

No, within the Tao te Ching there are plenty of references to God. It's just that with Taoism the emphasis isn't on any god(s), but on the natural order of things and our place in it. There is a god, Taoists acknowledge, but we are a part of Creation and must strive towards balancing ourselves with it. Taoism is much more philosophy than religion, though the I Ching introduces a much more religious tone to it.

I'm a bit biased as I feel only Lao Tzu's teachings are relevant* and as such it is not religon but philosophy; matters of God are left to the individual. My research on the subject a few years back for a World Religons class indicated that Taoism took on more religious aspects when Buddhism began encroaching on ancient China; it was a response to that encroachment of values, the leaders wanted to shore-up Chinese culture against alien ones.

*I realize that Lao Tzu may very well have been nothing more than legend; that the Tao te Ching may just be a collection of idioms, anecdotes, and jewels of wisdom gathered over millenia of Chinese culture. Most modern translations are derived from a version written in the 5th or 6th Century CE; Lao Tzu was to have lived in in 6th or 5th Century BCE.

	28-02-2005 19:04									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley Buddhism is definitely pantheistic.

They don't really believe in gods.

quote: Originally posted by Smiley Taoism I'm not quite sure what they believe in.

A bunch of gods.

	28-02-2005 19:11									#11
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quote: Originally posted by DRoseDARs No, within the Tao te Ching there are plenty of references to God.

Hmm... not really. There are certain references to a Creator, but that is not meant to be an anthropic God.

quote: Originally posted by DRoseDARs Taoism is much more philosophy than religion, though the I Ching introduces a much more religious tone to it.

Um, I Ching supposedly predates Lao Tzu. At any rate, it doesn't have anything to do with Taoism, except when accidentally.

quote: Originally posted by DRoseDARs My research on the subject a few years back for a World Religons class indicated that Taoism took on more religious aspects when Buddhism began encroaching on ancient China

There are two separate and distinct Daoism - one is the philosophical school stemmed from Lao Tzu and his followers. The other one is a religious sect that is a bastardisation of the philosophy.

	28-02-2005 19:32									#12
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one example does not most make

you would need some sort of statistical sample...

already I can say that your paper is ****

Jon Miller

	28-02-2005 21:02									#13
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JM: Bull. It depends on whether he wants to identify trends in scripture, society, theological interpretations and changes in history thereof, as well as classical or naturalistic pantheism. But it sounds like a fascinating thesis, I think he should go for it.

	28-02-2005 21:38									#14
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i cant answer your Q, but for scholarly info on Jewish mysticism read the works of Gershom Scholem.

For a less scholarly expolartion of the relation of Judaism to Buddism, read "The Jew in the Lotus" by Roger Kamenetz.

	28-02-2005 23:32									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Hmm... not really. There are certain references to a Creator, but that is not meant to be an anthropic God.

Meh, it depends on whose translation you read.

quote: Um, I Ching supposedly predates Lao Tzu. At any rate, it doesn't have anything to do with Taoism, except when accidentally.

Try telling that to religious Taoists and people otherwise unfamiliar with the subject...

quote: There are two separate and distinct Daoism - one is the philosophical school stemmed from Lao Tzu and his followers. The other one is a religious sect that is a bastardisation of the philosophy.

...Yes, I know. I think I've said that in some previous thread. Dao Jiao is one spelling I've seen. That's the one I feel is rubbish.

	01-03-2005 08:22									#16
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quote: Originally posted by DRoseDARs Meh, it depends on whose translation you read.

I read the orginal

	01-03-2005 12:18									#17
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quote: Judaism+Kabbalah (esp. pre-Hezekiah)

this might be problematic.