28-02-2005 20:25									#31
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So? It prevents them from preventing you from saying certain things - it doesn't say they can't make you also say certain other thing

	28-02-2005 20:26									#32
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But to learn basic communications skills in a new language shouldn't be too hard. If you have a few years you should manage to do so...

	28-02-2005 20:28									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker So? It prevents them from preventing you from saying certain things - it doesn't say they can't make you also say certain other thing

Yes it does .

	28-02-2005 20:33									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui There is this thing called freedom of speech, it allows you to speak whatever language you want in your home.

Let's make a little example here on why all should learn the language of the country they're living in:


Let's say we have this guy who comes from a place where less than 100 people speaks the only language he knows. He then decides to move to some random nation, but don't want to learn a second language, even though he's only 18 (so he's not too old to learn). Then one day he is the only witness to a murder and the government accuses some random innocent guy for the murder, the only one who can get this guy out and get the murderer in prison is some guy who now have lived 20+ years in this "new" country, but nobody is able to communicate with him because nobody knows his language...

	28-02-2005 20:35									#35
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Ok, the above example might be a bit too extreme... but the point is still there

	28-02-2005 20:36									#36
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quote: So? It prevents them from preventing you from saying certain things - it doesn't say they can't make you also say certain other thing

That's like saying freedom of press is consistent with the gov't forcing every news outlet to dedicate 3/4 of their space to repeating the gov't line.

	28-02-2005 20:44									#37
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quote: Let's say we have this guy who comes from a place where less than 100 people speaks the only language he knows. He then decides to move to some random nation, but don't want to learn a second language, even though he's only 18 (so he's not too old to learn). Then one day he is the only witness to a murder and the government accuses some random innocent guy for the murder, the only one who can get this guy out and get the murderer in prison is some guy who now have lived 20+ years in this "new" country, but nobody is able to communicate with him because nobody knows his language...

Yes, no English speaker knows Spanish in the US.

Is this meant to be a serious argument, or just a parody of one?

	28-02-2005 20:57									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Yes, no English speaker knows Spanish in the US. Is this meant to be a serious argument, or just a parody of one?

I'm not just talking about spanish. You do realize there are many languages out there which are only spoken by few people, right?

What if this foreign guy moves to some place where there's nobody else who speaks his language? Then the mentioned situation could happen

	28-02-2005 20:57									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Adagio AFAIK they "have" such tests for those foreign students who wish to study in DK, but apparently it doesn't work at all, since none* of the foreign students at my last school understands english

That's odd. As far as I'm aware, there is no such requirement for foreign students here, but they all seem to speak decent to excellent English.


The thing I hate is that many give improving their English as a reason to go here. If you want to improve your ****ing English, go to a ****ing English-speaking ****ing country, you ****!!!!!

	28-02-2005 20:59									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui There is this thing called freedom of speech, it allows you to speak whatever language you want in your home.

Where is it infringing upon her right to speak Spanish in the household or anywhere else. The court simply insisted upon learning a new language not the carte blanche replacement of spanish for all household transactions.

Face it when it comes to the welfare of children there have been any number of actions taken by the court in the name of the welfare of the children that defy logic. In this case it is my belief there are compelling statistics that speak to the social and economic advancement of children if they learn English. So the arguement around what is best for the child is and has been a compelling one in the past and will likely continue to be in the future. (God bless the Nanny state)

	28-02-2005 21:01									#41
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Bastard Judge! How dare he try and get her to improve her status!

	28-02-2005 21:05									#42
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Bastard Judge! How dare he try and get her to improve her status!

Yep a real bastard. Instead of taking the child away from her he decided villany of villanies to get her to "consider" birth control and learn a valuable skill to help her kid.


What next, suggesting 3 square meals?

	28-02-2005 21:06									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist That's odd. As far as I'm aware, there is no such requirement for foreign students here, but they all seem to speak decent to excellent English. The thing I hate is that many give improving their English as a reason to go here. If you want to improve your ****ing English, go to a ****ing English-speaking ****ing country, you ****!!!!!

The people who goes to my school don't come to this place to learn english, they just want to have some paper as evidence that they have some sort of education... needless to say they all failed first year (my school didn't have english spoken classes until the year I started). 50% of them tried again one more year, this time a few got through (with below min. req. average grades when finishing school)... for those who made it through there's still about a year before they finish, but I doubt any of them will make it through

I don't know if this is just a local problem or if the larger danish cities has the same problem...

	28-02-2005 21:11									#44
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quote: What if this foreign guy moves to some place where there's nobody else who speaks his language? Then the mentioned situation could happen

So what? He's allowed to speak what he wants to speak.

	28-02-2005 21:10									#45
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quote: I'm not just talking about spanish. You do realize there are many languages out there which are only spoken by few people, right? What if this foreign guy moves to some place where there's nobody else who speaks his language? Then the mentioned situation could happen

You do realize that people who can only speak obscure languages no one can translate are very unlikely to be the sole witness to a murder, right? Furthermore, you realize that a person who is forced to learn English could get discouraged and has to move back to his/her home country (leaving no witnesses to the murder!), right?

It's possible that I can shoot flames out of my ass, but I don't think I ought to worry about that.

	28-02-2005 21:18									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo You do realize that people who can only speak obscure languages no one can translate are very unlikely to be the sole witness to a murder, right? Furthermore, you realize that a person who is forced to learn English could get discouraged and has to move back to his/her home country (leaving no witnesses to the murder!), right?

It doesn't have to be that obscure. Just try to have someone from China move to some small town in DK where nobody is around who understands chineese (AND speaks english or danish)... Here where I live there are very few around who both speaks chinese and danish/english

	28-02-2005 21:18									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Adagio That would be "too late"... making them learn english now makes it easier to learn other things at school. If you start going to some english school without understanding english at all you will quickly get far behind the others in class

So can we make it mandatory for them to give their kids educational toys?

Look, we've got mandatory education for kids from 1st grade or Kindergarten (?) If we want mandatory education earlier, well lets mandate that and fund it.

I doubt that ESL (engiish as a second language) is as big a drain on resources for kids coming to Kindergarten with no English, as it is for new immigrant kids coming in at later ages with no English.

OTOH, intense English education for new immigrants would be a good idea. But hardly needs to be mandatory - build it, they will come.

	28-02-2005 21:22									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: What if this foreign guy moves to some place where there's nobody else who speaks his language? Then the mentioned situation could happen So what? He's allowed to speak what he wants to speak.

Would you think the same if you are the person who's about to go to death row for a murder you didn't commit, knowing that this guy who have lived as your neighbor for 20+ years doesn't understand english is the only who can get you out, but he's not able to do it because he can't communicate with anyone?

	28-02-2005 21:22									#49
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quote: It doesn't have to be that obscure.

The point is that such a situation is insanely unlikely.

quote: Just try to have someone from China move to some small town in DK where nobody is around who understands chineese (AND speaks english or danish)... Here where I live there are very few around who both speaks chinese and danish/english

Then they can find a translator in Copenhagen if this absurdly unlikely situation happens.

	28-02-2005 21:25									#50
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In Copenhagen yes, here no!

	28-02-2005 21:26									#51
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quote: Would you think the same if you are the person who's about to go to death row for a murder you didn't commit, knowing that this guy who have lived as your neighbor for 20+ years doesn't understand english is the only who can get you out, but he's not able to do it because he can't communicate with anyone?

quote: So what? He's allowed to speak what he wants to speak.

And are you telling me there are no translators around? And what do I know he saw if I can't ask him?

	28-02-2005 21:27									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe What next, suggesting 3 square meals?

Oh the humanity!

	28-02-2005 21:30									#53
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quote: In Copenhagen yes, here no!

Then this witness of yours who's in your small town who can only speak a language for which there exists absolutely no community (what, exactly, is he doing there, I wonder? how does he work?) can find a frickin Mandarin speaker in Copenhagen.

	28-02-2005 21:38									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Furthermore, you realize that a person who is forced to learn English could get discouraged and has to move back to his/her home country (leaving no witnesses to the murder!), right?

That would be bad how?

	28-02-2005 21:39									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker So? It prevents them from preventing you from saying certain things - it doesn't say they can't make you also say certain other thing

Actually it does.

	28-02-2005 21:39									#56
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AFAIK there's no translaters around this place who can most languages in the world (that is in several translators, not just one)

But the thing is I don't see WHY you should even use translators for people who have lived in some foregn country for 20+ years.
Why did they move to a foreign place if they don't want to try to learn to be able to communicate with the locals... they should at least try to learn it
I don't like the fact that 25% (or probably more) of foreigners who have lived in this city for 20+ years haven't even tried to learn danish.
Because they can't understand danish (or english) they're not able to get a job and if they can't get a job it's the government who has to give them money so they can live, and as you all know it's the taxes we pay that goes to this. I don't see no reason why I should pay money to someone so he/she can live, but wont even try to make it possible to get a job so he/she can pay it back some day

	28-02-2005 21:40									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist That would be bad how?

Beats me. Maybe Ramo likes people living in ghettos.

	28-02-2005 21:41									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo what, exactly, is he doing there, I wonder?

I'm wondering the same thing

quote: Originally posted by Ramo how does he work?

He doesn't

	28-02-2005 21:44									#59
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In the U.S., it's a time honored tradition of 0-gen immigrants to not be able to speak English, while their children can speak both languages, because they learn English at school. It's much easier for children to learn new languages than for children to do so. The mohter doesn't need to learn English, her kid will learn it at school and be able to speak both as an adult.

	28-02-2005 21:47									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Adagio AFAIK there's no translaters around this place who can most languages in the world (that is in several translators, not just one) But the thing is I don't see WHY you should even use translators for people who have lived in some foregn country for 20+ years. Why did they move to a foreign place if they don't want to try to learn to be able to communicate with the locals... they should at least try to learn it I don't like the fact that 25% (or probably more) of foreigners who have lived in this city for 20+ years haven't even tried to learn danish. Because they can't understand danish (or english) they're not able to get a job and if they can't get a job it's the government who has to give them money so they can live, and as you all know it's the taxes we pay that goes to this. I don't see no reason why I should pay money to someone so he/she can live, but wont even try to make it possible to get a job so he/she can pay it back some day

My father in law, may he rest in peace, was never really even conversational in English, much less fluent. AFAIK he supported his family from his work from the time he arrived till he retired. He came to the US in order to be safe from the dangers his family faced in eastern europe circa 1956, and to have a better future. Of his seven children, 5 are quite fluent in English, and the other are two are conversational. All the males are employed, and the two daughters have been at various points, and their husbands are. Id say my father in law achieved his goal.