28-02-2005 21:47									#61
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How does he get welfare? If he speaks a language that no one can translate, how exactly does he get his welfare check? How does he pay rent, for groceries? The point is, your example is totally absurd.

quote: That would be bad how?

There wouldn't be any witnesses to the murder, duh.

quote: Beats me. Maybe Ramo likes people living in ghettos.

Maybe Dino is an idiot.

	28-02-2005 21:47									#62
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quote: In the U.S., it's a time honored tradition of 0-gen immigrants to not be able to speak English, while their children can speak both languages

There have been plenty of families where the kids have had to translate for the parents, who immigrated from the old country. They didn't have to learn English because they lived in communities where everyone spoke German or Polish or whatever. The kids learned English in schools.

	28-02-2005 21:50									#63
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara In the U.S., it's a time honored tradition of 0-gen immigrants to not be able to speak English, while their children can speak both languages, because they learn English at school. It's much easier for children to learn new languages than for children to do so. The mohter doesn't need to learn English, her kid will learn it at school and be able to speak both as an adult.

Zero-gen immigrants? As in, the parents who stayed in the old country?

	28-02-2005 21:50									#64
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Encouraging people to speak English, si! Forcing them to speak English, no! Especially, when the force comes from threatening to take away their children!

Traditionally, in America, the first generation retains the language of their birth; the second generation is bilingual, and the third generation speaks only English. This has worked for a couple a hundred years.

	28-02-2005 21:50									#65
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara In the U.S., it's a time honored tradition of 0-gen immigrants to not be able to speak English, while their children can speak both languages, because they learn English at school. It's much easier for children to learn new languages than for children to do so. The mohter doesn't need to learn English, her kid will learn it at school and be able to speak both as an adult.

QOTM spoke only Yiddish at home when they arrived (mixed with some Hungarian) She was too young for school so she picked up a new language in the neighborhood - not English, but Spanish (her poor parents having settled on not the most Jewish block in Brooklyn) From school age on she learned English (and Hebrew) - she still doesnt have the vocabulary to speak of more intellectual matters in Yiddish (oh, and shes forgotten her Spanish, and most of her Hungarian)

	28-02-2005 21:52									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: In the U.S., it's a time honored tradition of 0-gen immigrants to not be able to speak English, while their children can speak both languages There have been plenty of families where the kids have had to translate for the parents, who immigrated from the old country.

QOTM had to do this at various times.

	28-02-2005 21:55									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Maybe Dino is an idiot.

Not really that is the practical effect of what you are suggesting after all. Requiring at least basic English proficency would improve the status of many immigrants and raise them out of the economic ghettos we currently force them into.

	28-02-2005 21:59									#68
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quote: Zero-gen immigrants? As in, the parents who stayed in the old country?

No, as in the original immigrants. My parents speak pretty good English, being from a former British colony, but plenty of immigrant parents do not.

	28-02-2005 22:02									#69
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Not really that is the practical effect of what you are suggesting after all. Requiring at least basic English proficency would improve the status of many immigrants and raise them out of the economic ghettos we currently force them into.

Presumably the immigrant makes a rational judgement about whether the cost of learning english, including the opportunity cost, is justified by the gain. Just as they do in deciding whether to get training in any other work skill.

There may well be external benefits to society of them learning english. I think there are. So that would seem to argue for, say, subsidizing the teaching of English. Do we do that?

	28-02-2005 22:04									#70
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If you move to a country, you should learn the language.

	28-02-2005 22:11									#71
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Heres some info about ESL for adults in the county where i live (bolding by LOTM):

"Placement testing is required of new and re-entering students. Take the placement tests at the same location where you want to take class. We can only test 75 students at each site. Once your placement level is determined, you may register for class at that time, if space is available. Allow two to three hours for testing. Please do not bring children to testing, registration, or classes.

An application fee ($10) plus book and tuition fees (determined at placement) are paid at time of testing. You may pay with money order, check, or charge only. No cash accepted.

Reduced tuition classes are available to eligible students ages 18 or older. To request reduced tuition proof of Fairfax County residency and any immigration or similiar documents (I-551, I-94, US Passport, Employment Authorization Card, etc) to placement testing so that your eligibility can be determined. There are no senior citizen waivers."


Well, at least some reduced tuition is available, but its hardly like we're providing it free to all who want it, and the placements are limited (they can of course go to private language schools,at greater cost)

	28-02-2005 22:11									#72
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I do have to say that I'm curious how a legal immigrant got in here without learning any English at all. That being said I agree with the probation officer quoted in the article.

many people where I live don't speak English. In fact, you need to know how to speak Spanish to get many jobs here.

	28-02-2005 22:13									#73
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Hello?? You live in my country, at least learn the ****ing language!

	28-02-2005 22:15									#74
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if we really cared about immigrants learning english we'd FUND it.

	28-02-2005 22:19									#75
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Well that kind of gets to the heart of the matter. On the one hand we care, on the other hand we want to discourage illegal immigration to the point where we make it difficult in many respects.

	28-02-2005 22:22									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Adagio AFAIK there's no translaters around this place who can most languages in the world (that is in several translators, not just one) But the thing is I don't see WHY you should even use translators for people who have lived in some foregn country for 20+ years. Why did they move to a foreign place if they don't want to try to learn to be able to communicate with the locals... they should at least try to learn it I don't like the fact that 25% (or probably more) of foreigners who have lived in this city for 20+ years haven't even tried to learn danish. Because they can't understand danish (or english) they're not able to get a job and if they can't get a job it's the government who has to give them money so they can live, and as you all know it's the taxes we pay that goes to this. I don't see no reason why I should pay money to someone so he/she can live, but wont even try to make it possible to get a job so he/she can pay it back some day

now you know how we feel in the U.S.

but it's not politically correct to say anything about it. So I don't.

	28-02-2005 22:23									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Zero-gen immigrants? As in, the parents who stayed in the old country? No, as in the original immigrants. My parents speak pretty good English, being from a former British colony, but plenty of immigrant parents do not.

If I immigrate to a country, I'm a first generation immigrant. If I have kids that grow up in the new country, they're second generations immigrants. Don't tell my you 'Merkun don't even get the basic terminology right.

	28-02-2005 22:25									#78
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark if we really cared about immigrants learning english we'd FUND it.

Yep. That's true. We simply don't, however.

	28-02-2005 22:27									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Don't tell my you 'Merkun don't even get the basic terminology right.

Usually the dumb ignorant 'Merkun slams are taken more seriously when written in the context of good grammar.

	28-02-2005 22:32									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident now you know how we feel in the U.S. but it's not politically correct to say anything about it. So I don't.

I hate politically correctness

I must hornestly say I don't understand why it's pc, since it's the same "rule" for everybody, like if I move to Italy I have to learn italian, it's not just for people from a certain country to go to a certain country

	28-02-2005 22:34									#81
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EDIT: This post doesn't exist

Last edited by Adagio on 28-02-2005 at 22:51

	28-02-2005 22:47									#82
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quote: Not really that is the practical effect of what you are suggesting after all. Requiring at least basic English proficency would improve the status of many immigrants and raise them out of the economic ghettos we currently force them into.

Maybe immigrants are unable to learn basic English because of dire economic need. People who actually care about these peoples' welfare would support the kinds of education programs that lotm is mentioning, rather than forcing them to carry unrealistic burdens.

	28-02-2005 22:47									#83
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quote: No, it's not true... if the government funds it for immigrants then only very few would show up, so it's wasted money unless they force them to go to these classes...

And on what basis do you say that?

	28-02-2005 22:50									#84
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Nah, nevermind, I wanted to delete that post, because now as I re-read the government funding thing I see that I read it the wrong way, so just ignore that post

	28-02-2005 23:30									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo quote: Not really that is the practical effect of what you are suggesting after all. Requiring at least basic English proficency would improve the status of many immigrants and raise them out of the economic ghettos we currently force them into. Maybe immigrants are unable to learn basic English because of dire economic need. People who actually care about these peoples' welfare would support the kinds of education programs that lotm is mentioning, rather than forcing them to carry unrealistic burdens.

I support free English classes for immigrants not only out of concern for those peoples welfare, but out of my American nationalism. Immigrant absorption is important for our national strength.

	28-02-2005 23:41									#86
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I think immigrants should be required to take a free english class before they can become US citizens.

	28-02-2005 23:44									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Odin I think immigrants should be required to take a free english class before they can become US citizens.

why would they want to become citizens?

that isn't necessary.

	01-03-2005 00:22									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Datajack Franit Hello?? You live in my country, at least learn the ****ing language!

No I don't.

	01-03-2005 00:50									#89
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So don't complain if you get a disease and you're not able to express yourself at the hospital

	01-03-2005 01:51									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Datajack Franit So don't complain if you get a disease and you're not able to express yourself at the hospital

wrong answer, lawsuits (and increased business) are why many businesses in my city has to have bilingual employees.