03-03-2005 09:32									#1
	3500 BC Turn Support Apolyton

The east:

Attachment: bab3550bc-east.jpg
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	03-03-2005 09:33									#2
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The centre:

Attachment: bab3550bc-centre.jpg
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	03-03-2005 09:33									#3
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The west:

Attachment: bab3550bc-west.jpg
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	03-03-2005 09:35									#4
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The demographics in 3550bc:

OK - something weird happened with my demographics screenshot. If you are dying to see it - please check the save. We are back into a tie for 1st place in population.

Suggestions on moves??

	03-03-2005 10:30									#5
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Gunther 6. Let's make contact. It won't slow down our getting around LB territory, and we should get working on tech deals, especially now that we have two to essentially bid off against each other for best deal on Masonry.

Anna 8, Felix 8, continuing to explore.

It looks like that's Morpork's just-expanded radius, but it may be two cities' radii combining just so. Either way, it's hard to tell the shape of their territory, so I suggest we simply move Cain 4 and have him split off west, since Anna and Felix are already headed north.

quote: Originally posted by Beta I am also relieved that we are not adjacent to any of the overtly war-like civs, but that all can change quickly in civ.

I wouldn't get too relaxed... most civvers fall in to one of two categories: Those who like war, and those who like what war can bring them.

	03-03-2005 10:35									#6
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Also, make sure to use the tech cost trick when making contact when playing this turn and making contact: lower our science rate to the lowest setting that still gets the costliest tech (Iron Working?) researched in under 50 turns, then write down the turns till each tech. Each time you make contact, see if tech costs fall from where they were before contact was made with that civ. This will reveal what techs they've researched among the techs we can research but haven't.

This way, we'll not only know what techs of ours they have, but what techs we can research but haven't that they have. We could probably still ask for this information as if we don't know it, but regardless, we'd be able to start planning our trades with the two earlier.

	03-03-2005 17:20									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Beta OK - something weird happened with my demographics screenshot. If you are dying to see it - please check the save. We are back into a tie for 1st place in population.

We already were.

The most interesting metric is that of Productivity, in which we were 1st a few turns ago. We remained at the same level of Productivity (24), but others gained terrain, and we dropped to 5th. Where are we now?

	03-03-2005 17:34									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep Gunther 6. Let's make contact. It won't slow down our getting around LB territory, and we should get working on tech deals

Agreed. Move Gunther E. The fun thing is that we should now be able to see if the city is defended. If it's not, we might have a better position at the negotiation table (whether we mention it or not).
We also appear to be coming from a slightly different angle than we really do - this might help to confuse them

quote: Originally posted by Kloreep Anna 8, Felix 8, continuing to explore.

Again, agreed. Move 'em both N. We can use these two for making contact with the rest of the world, which is quite important at this stage. We may become the Trade Kings!

quote: Originally posted by Kloreep It looks like that's Morpork's just-expanded radius, but it may be two cities' radii combining just so.

No - their boundaries will expand only one turn before ours do (because they settled on turn 1). This means they will expand next turn!
From our position, we should be able to witness this process, if their capital is on the SE-side of their little empire. We may be able to deduce the position of their capital from this.
There should be a city W-NW-NW from our warrior Cain.

We will see this city if we move W.
If we move N, the forests will unfortunately block our view.
In both cases they should be able to see us, and have the ability to make in-game contact.

However, I'm in favour of moving N and then loop around the northern edge of their territory, simply because I think the next civ should be found somewhere NW of them.

There is another reason: the tile W from Cain may be within their borders next turn.

I suggest we send the next warrior from Plains of Ashur due West to scout out that terrain.

	03-03-2005 17:52									#9
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Morpork info:

Conquest - Egypt - War Chariot (2/1/2) - Masonry & Ceremonial Burial - Industrious & Religious

"Ankh-Morpork have decided to keep the Ambassador's post empty."

save sent to:
Ankh-Morpork:
conqueror ta mbnet tod fi
chris ta jackos tod f2s tod com
nebucadnez2ar at yahoo com
jshelruss ta yahoo tod com


Suggestion:
Try to get Masonry from Morpork, and Alphabet from Lost Boys.

LB: Alphabet (5) for Ceremonial Burial (2) + {Bronze Working (3) OR Warrior Code (3)}

M: Masonry (4) + {gold or goodwill} for Pottery (2) + {Bronze Working (3) and Warrior Code (3)}

Both teams will have finished one other tech by now, so this picture may change if we really meet them.

In any case, trading on the first turn we make contact is essential! Lots of civs will be meeting each other around this point in time, and we need to get the best deals ASAP.

	03-03-2005 20:02									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Important if following Kolreeps to remember to raise the science rate back to normal level before ending the turn so we don't waste time on Mystism. Somehow I dought either of these two civs have it, so the price of it will not fall.

	04-03-2005 00:10									#11
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I have a draft saved for when we make contact with Lost Boys, I will add the tech trade part once we figure out what we can trade with them.

Greetings, I am Gamecube64, the assigned ambassador to your fine nation from Babylon. We wish no ill will to come between us, as we are a peaceful culture with great interests in art and science, but be warned. If you cross us we will not hesitate to attack. Our goddess Inanna may be of love, but she is also of war.

	04-03-2005 01:14									#12
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No need to "reinvent the wheel", a little unintentional civ joke there, but I would use the same speech for consistency in dealing with our neighbors.

I do want to make sure I fully understand what we are trying to get and what we are willing to offer when it comes to negotiating these trades -- especially if "goodwill" is a component.

	05-03-2005 04:24									#13
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We've got the save. Morpork has established contact, and is offering us Masonry (unaccepted). We can only offer them Bronze Working...

So, they have, besides their starting techs, Pottery and Warrior Code. It is quite possible they met another neighbour to trade with.
Let's try to find out if they got Warrior Code from a hut...

A Morporkian warrior ("Cohen") is E-NE from Cain on a Mountain. It is wounded. This can be a danger to our Goody Hut.
On the other hand - he's more likely to be heading east (away from their cities). We can cut him off with our northern (middle) warrior.

We are Average to their Military, and they are impressed with our culture. Their capital is Thebes.

Four of our rivals' capitals have reached size 2, but we are still #1 in population. We're back to 2nd in production


Babylon will grow next turn. We may be able to micro-manage well if we do the following:

Inanna's Throne - work the tile SW-SW of it;
Babylon - work the tile N-NE of it;
Plains of Ashur - work tiles N and SE.

This way, we leave the Ivory unworked, but the new labourer from Babylon will work it and get its shield and trade values during the same turn.

Last edited by BigFurryMonster on 05-03-2005 at 04:42

	05-03-2005 04:43									#14
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I am suggesting we offer bronze working and accept the deal. And we agree we owe them a tech point.

Also - explain to them that we want to pop the hut with a settler to increase the opportunity of getting a tech. We can also offer them real deal on any tech we get- say 15 gold. Sharing is OK too. We just don't want them popping the hut that close to our borders. I think they will understand.

Shogun. This will be your job to convince them of the wisdom of not popping the hut, and the benefit of the tech deal.

To be honest - I like who we have as neighbours.

BFM - thanks for the micro-management ideas.

	05-03-2005 04:47									#15
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Should we even mention the hut? We can also try to strike a deal that we won't go West with Cain, and they won't go South with Cohen.
Two arguments apply:

• We're not a threat to each other's borders.
  
• We're not scouting out terrain that has been scouted by the other.
  

	05-03-2005 06:59									#16
	Got spare money?

Considering map trading does not come until Navigation (unless that was changed for this game?) I don't think we'll want to limit our scouting. Neither will they, probably. Asking them not to pop that hut is better, I think.

quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster This way, we leave the Ivory unworked, but the new labourer from Babylon will work it and get its shield and trade values during the same turn.

Actually, trade values are not gotten from tiles a city grows on to. The order is commerce-food (thus growth)-shields.

	05-03-2005 07:44									#17
	Got spare money?

I was contacted by the Morepork ambassador. He offerred Masonry and said they weren't pressed to make a deal on this turn.

I told him we would get back to him regarding what we could offer for Masonry.

He did state the following:

quote: Depending on your current research we can make a trade agreement.

That's a good sign...maybe they will be willing to cooperate a bit this time around so we can masonry.

	05-03-2005 07:47									#18
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Please advise me to what I should say about the hut..... I will wait for instructions before contacting Morepork ambassador.

	05-03-2005 07:54									#19
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Turn Played

Added BW to the proposed trade from the Morporkians for Masonry, and accepted it.

BW2 and BW3 moved 2 (south)

Felix - (cnetre warrior remaned) moved 8 (North), and sees barbs.

Anna moves 9.

Gunther moves 6 ...no contact

Cain moves 8.

	05-03-2005 08:05									#20
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And I left the citizens working their current tiles. BFM, I am not sure of the advantage we would derive from your proposal. I figure the next citizen up at Babylon will work the enhanced grassland tile, which accomplishes the same thing - I think.

With next turn - the bowman should be produced in 3 turns.

	05-03-2005 08:47									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Beta Gunther moves 6 ...no contact

Making contact by moving next to their borders is a little buggy in Civ3. Next time try the "D" button; I've found it to be a reliable way to establish contact on the same turn (though only once you've made at least one contact to start with, as the button doesn't appear until then).

But, that was the official play, so we'll just have to wait for the turn to come around again. The LBs will contact us on their turn and start off the trading, I'm sure.

	05-03-2005 14:28									#22
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Are we allowed to contact them yet? I know there is no official in-game contact, but we're right on their borders there!

Beta - if Kloreep is right, you did the good thing by not switching the labourers.

We should contact Morpork every turn about the trade. This way, we can stay "in the loop" for tech deals. Just offer them BW for Masonry and possibly some goodwill ("we owe you one tech point") and see what they say.

	05-03-2005 18:53									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep Making contact by moving next to their borders is a little buggy in Civ3. Next time try the "D" button; I've found it to be a reliable way to establish contact on the same turn (though only once you've made at least one contact to start with, as the button doesn't appear until then).

It's been my experience that you can only make contact by meeting a unit - or crossing into the other civ's territory and getting asked to leave. I've never tried the D button.

This is the great thing about demo games. Learn something new every day.

	06-03-2005 00:48									#24
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quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster Are we allowed to contact them yet? I know there is no official in-game contact, but we're right on their borders there!

I think we have to wait for them to contact us since we didn't actually have contact in our turn. Or, if they don't, wait for the save to come around to us again.

	07-03-2005 13:07									#25
	Put an end to popups!

The save has just been sent to Lost Boys. I sure hope they'll contact us soon.

	07-03-2005 19:24									#26
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I'm here all day and standing by.

	07-03-2005 19:43									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep I think we have to wait for them to contact us since we didn't actually have contact in our turn.

Or did we? One could also argue that we did make contact, but just didn't press Shift-D to actually send a messenger...

quote: Originally posted by Beta I'm here all day and standing by.

Are they going to try to contact you, or Shogun Gunner ?

	07-03-2005 19:52									#28
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In Single Player mode, I usally find that to make contact the same turn I have to right click on a unit belonging to that player and then hit "contact [unit type]. (The new empire will not show up on the "D" pop menu)

Being next to their border, on a non-hill/non-mountain, we probably don't have contact quite yet since we probably can't see any of their units. They will have contact with us on their turn though.

quote: Originally posted by Kloreep Making contact by moving next to their borders is a little buggy in Civ3. Next time try the "D" button; I've found it to be a reliable way to establish contact on the same turn (though only once you've made at least one contact to start with, as the button doesn't appear until then). But, that was the official play, so we'll just have to wait for the turn to come around again. The LBs will contact us on their turn and start off the trading, I'm sure.

	08-03-2005 04:45									#29
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn (The new empire will not show up on the "D" pop menu)

Strange, it usually does for me.

	08-03-2005 14:49									#30
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Save sent to Morpork. No sign of the Lost Boys yet??