03-03-2005 19:05									#1
	Science? and other matters Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Ok Ive been lurking here for about one month and have a couple of questions that I cant seem to find the answer for.

1. Can you have a Great leader generated by
Science and still get one generated by an elite?

2. Could someone explain exactly the effects of of using a Scientist or two in a city?

3. Why does making a unhappy citizen into a tax collector actually help matters in an unhappy city?

4. I really dont understand how harbor trade routes work. (Im an island nation with colonies on a bigger continent) Both with trading with other civs and with distributing my resources.

thanks in advance

"...He blinded me with SCIENCE!..."

	03-03-2005 19:43									#2
	Re: Science? and other matters Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Newbomb Ok Ive been lurking here for about one month and have a couple of questions that I cant seem to find the answer for. 1. Can you have a Great leader generated by Science and still get one generated by an elite?

I'm pretty sure you can, but you can't get a science leader if you have a military leader IIRC. I'm sure someone with more experience will be able to tell. I have seen maybe 3 total science leaders ever, though.

quote: 2. Could someone explain exactly the effects of of using a Scientist or two in a city?

Scientists add beakers to the city, I think 3 in Conquests? 1 Beaker = 1 gold spent on science, but is not subject to corruption.

quote: 3. Why does making a unhappy citizen into a tax collector actually help matters in an unhappy city?

Only sometimes in certain situations. Basically, citizens are unhappy only if they are working. Removing an unhappy citizen to be a specialist therefore adjusts the immediate situation but does nothing to truly change happiness level with the obvious exception of entertainers.

quote: 4. I really dont understand how harbor trade routes work. (Im an island nation with colonies on a bigger continent) Both with trading with other civs and with distributing my resources.

As long as you have harbors on both sides it works like this:

Prior to Astronomy or building the lighthouse, you can trade if the harbors are connected by coast. "Routes" are automatic along areas not containing fog. Routes through enemy territory when at war can be cut off.

After Astronomy or Lighthouse, but before Navigation, you can trade over SEA tiles.

After Navigation, you can trade over open ocean.

Essentially your harbors are automatically connected to all other harbors in the game for the tech level you have.

	03-03-2005 20:20									#3
	Re: Science? and other matters Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Newbomb Ok Ive been lurking here for about one month and have a couple of questions that I cant seem to find the answer for. 1. Can you have a Great leader generated by Science and still get one generated by an elite?

Nope, having either a SGL/MGL precludes additional MGLs. You can still get new SGLs hoarding SGLs and a MGL.

quote: 2. Could someone explain exactly the effects of of using a Scientist or two in a city?

1. Any specialist is always content.
2. In Conquests, a flat uncorrupted 3 science beakers per scientist regardless of science improvements. Pre-Conquests, it's 1.

3. It will be very depedent upon remaining needed beakers as to weather your throwing money away with the scientists in the form of wasted beakers or not.

quote: 3. Why does making a unhappy citizen into a tax collector actually help matters in an unhappy city?

Any specialist is always content.

quote: 4. I really dont understand how harbor trade routes work. (Im an island nation with colonies on a bigger continent) Both with trading with other civs and with distributing my resources.

Early in the game, the sea connection with harbors can only pass thru Coastal tiles.
With Astronmeny, sea trade connections can include sea as well but not ocean.

It's not until Navigation or Magnetics [whichever you reach first] that trade connections cna pass thru ocean tiles.

	03-03-2005 21:57									#4
	Re: Re: Science? and other matters Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Nope, having either a SGL/MGL precludes additional SGLs. You can still get new SGLs hoarding SGLs and a MGL.

You are wrong and contradicting yourself... (I think its a typo but a quite important one...)

It should be
Nope, having either a SGL/MGL precludes additional MGLs. You can still get new SGLs hoarding SGLs and a MGL.

	03-03-2005 23:01									#5
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Fixed the typo in the original

	03-03-2005 23:48									#6
	HMM Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Still dont understand if the beakers affect your building program or if not that how they affect your research? I cant seem to see them lessening turn count.

Also in every game I have played I cannot get the AI to buy anything for a per turn count even 1gpt.

	04-03-2005 00:35									#7
	Re: HMM Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Newbomb Still dont understand if the beakers affect your building program or if not that how they affect your research? I cant seem to see them lessening turn count. Also in every game I have played I cannot get the AI to buy anything for a per turn count even 1gpt.

I am not sure I understand your questions, but try this concept.

Beakers = gold

Researching a tech has a formula that uses things such had level and map size and some other things to determine how many beakers are needed to learn a given tech.

A citizen works a tile and that tile yields food, commerce or shields or a combination of all three. How much of each depends on the qualities of the tile and its improvements.

You set your slider to a level (percentage) for research, among other things. This determines how much of your gold (net of corruption) is converted to beakers. If you use specialist called scientist, you get a direct conversion to beakers, not affected by corription. This is three beakers in C3C.

Beakers are accumulated each turn until you have at least enough to get a breakthrough. Excess beakers are lost, so it is wise to turn down the slider to conserve any excess.

So the impact on any other production such as a structure is that the more gold you convert to beakers, the less you have for building.

The only way to lower the time frame is to either increase the beakers per turn count or to have additional contacts with civs that already know the tech. The two way to increase the beaker count is to increase the slider rate or increase the enconomy. The economy is increased by additonal citizens working tiles or adding improvments to those tiles worked. Of course there are other improvements to be had such as lowering corruption or a more effecient form of governemnt, but I will ignore them.

One way to end up not getting any gpt deals with the ai is to have broke previous deals with someone. A bad rep will make the AI refuse any gpt deals, even when it is very favorable to them.

	04-03-2005 00:53									#8
	Re: HMM Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I don't bother with Scientists in the epic game, it's too rare for them to make a difference.

In some of the conquests though, there are occansions that scientists come in handy shaving off a turn at the same science slider setting.

AI is programmed under pop-rush govts to set science as high as possible that doesn't run a deficit.

Under cash-rush govts, it's not so clear, except that AIs falling to far behind tend to panic and also devote science as high as possible, [the exact opposite a human would which would be to virtually shut off research and enter GPT deals]

quote: Originally posted by Newbomb Still dont understand if the beakers affect your building program or if not that how they affect your research? I cant seem to see them lessening turn count. Also in every game I have played I cannot get the AI to buy anything for a per turn count even 1gpt.

	04-03-2005 01:07									#9
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I should have also mentioned that the ai will not do a gpt deal, if it would mean a deficit. Remember the AI does not have the smarts to change its slider or work load to generate teh income surplus to fund the deal.

	04-03-2005 22:42									#10
	Re: Re: HMM Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 So the impact on any other production such as a structure is that the more gold you convert to beakers, the less you have for building.

You didn't mention--probably because it's so obvious--that the other production reduction may be the number of shields that could have been produced by the new scientist (or any other specialist).

	04-03-2005 23:25									#11
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Also because I would not have any scientist, unless I was at zero research and I would only have 1 in the whole empire.

	05-03-2005 03:50									#12
	Remove this text

I too rarely use scientist specialists...more likely I use a taxman or two. Having more $$$ coming in means that you can set the slider to devote more to science.

The exception to this is in a city that had, say, The Colossus AND Copernicus Observatory or Newton's. Then I might be very tempted to put some scientists there...probably would pay off better to put a taxman or two there (as I am violating my own rule, hehe) so I could adjust the slider, but hey.

	05-03-2005 04:30									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I am ignoring metros in this issue as once they get larger than the number of tiles available, then you have free specialist and could be whatever you want.

	06-03-2005 01:08									#14
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn 2. In Conquests, a flat uncorrupted 3 science beakers per scientist regardless of science improvements. Pre-Conquests, it's 1.

1 what? Civ3 has always been 2 gold for taxmen and 3 beakers for scientists, hasn't it? At least since vanilla1.29.

I'm surprised to hear people not using scientists. They give 50% more commerce than taxmen. I usually make all specialists scientists (as opposed to taxmen) until the last turn of research. Then knock down the science slider to the minimum and switch as many scientists over to taxmen to make the bare minimum of beakers. Sure its MM, but only once per discovery.

	06-03-2005 01:11									#15
	Re: Science? and other matters Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Newbomb 3. Why does making a unhappy citizen into a tax collector actually help matters in an unhappy city?

Great question...

Some people are just destined to accountancy, I guess.

	06-03-2005 01:18									#16
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Pre-Conquests, it was always one beaker/gold/happy face per specialist. It was only in Conquests 1.00 that they changed it.

	06-03-2005 01:40									#17
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

So it was. Too many versions of Civ I/II/III over the years to keep straight...

	06-03-2005 02:16									#18
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Scientist giving 3 beakers is of little value while researching modern era techs. It is more trouble than it is worth to try to track the beaker counts.

Just take the extra happiness or gold, both of which you can always use. You never have to change a taxman to anything due to break points as you would for science.

	06-03-2005 04:45									#19
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I find that earlier in the game it can shave a few turns off of research time, especially when different cities are at different levels of development and the luxury slider would be wasteful in one area or another.

Last edited by Rommel2D on 07-03-2005 at 11:35

	07-03-2005 20:11									#20
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

No it won't, scientists produce a flat 3 science beakers, regardless of all improvements [including wonders] in the existing city. (Also regardless of corruption level)

Similarly, taxmen produce a flat 2 gold, regardless of all improvements [including wonders] in the existing city.

3 is greater than 2, but extra beakers are lost, usally effectively resulting in 0 vs 2 in epic. (Some of the conquests though do feature low enough science costs for a second level of science tweaking. [Not only the science slider, but how many taxmen and scientists to absolutely minimizing wasted beakers.])

Ditto for Civil Enginners, except if your producing a military unit, the CE go on strike. [They can only be used to speed along improvements and wonders.] Also note that extra shields are also wasted and so they need to be tweaked. So I usually only use them for wonders where it is likely that having them several turns will shave a turn or two off of it.

The one specalist whose effects are effectively multipiled is the Policemen. -1 corrupted shield and -1 corrupted commerce. This is before city improvements, so the city improvements can yeild additional sheilds / science / taxes / luxaries from the non longer lost to corruption shield and commerce. Consequantely this is my normal specalist to use in the Industrial and Modern eras. There's a decent chance I'll get some benifit of it that's not wasted. (Provided there is both a wasted shield and wasted commerce without it)

quote: Originally posted by Mace I too rarely use scientist specialists...more likely I use a taxman or two. Having more $$$ coming in means that you can set the slider to devote more to science. The exception to this is in a city that had, say, The Colossus AND Copernicus Observatory or Newton's. Then I might be very tempted to put some scientists there...probably would pay off better to put a taxman or two there (as I am violating my own rule, hehe) so I could adjust the slider, but hey.

	07-03-2005 20:15									#21
	Tired of ads?

I'll go further than that, Scientist giving 3 beakers in epic games is of little value reseraching anything other than an ancient era tech on most map sizes. The larger the map size, the more rapidally it's value will debrease to zero.

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Scientist giving 3 beakers is of little value while researching modern era techs. It is more trouble than it is worth to try to track the beaker counts. Just take the extra happiness or gold, both of which you can always use. You never have to change a taxman to anything due to break points as you would for science.

	07-03-2005 21:19									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Turning 10 Taxmen into Scientists provides 30bpt, which is sometimes enought to cut off a turn on Industrial era techs (sometimes Modern era, if you're lucky). Obviously 3bpt is nothing impressive, but in numbers (such as you get when conquering enemy territory) Scientists are far from useless.

	08-03-2005 14:04									#23
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn No it won't, scientists produce a flat 3 science beakers, regardless of all improvements [including wonders] in the existing city. (Also regardless of corruption level) Similarly, taxmen produce a flat 2 gold, regardless of all improvements [including wonders] in the existing city. 3 is greater than 2, but extra beakers are lost, usally effectively resulting in 0 vs 2 in epic. (Some of the conquests though do feature low enough science costs for a second level of science tweaking. [Not only the science slider, but how many taxmen and scientists to absolutely minimizing wasted beakers.])

Why would the tweaking you mention only work for conquests? Even if scientists don't make enough beakers to bring research down a whole turn, being able to set research at (ie) 10% instead of 50% the final turn will return more cash than if you had taxmen the whole time, provided you do balance out the taxmen the final turn also.

However, if you try to shave it down to the last one or two beakers and an enemy crosses over the wrong tile...

	08-03-2005 20:38									#24
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The slider tweaking works in all Civ III games.

The taxmen vs science tweak is more of a conquests only situtation due to it being rare to have so many specalists that it would save a turn at all for all of them to be scientists at any slider position. (Cost of techs.)

quote: Originally posted by Rommel2D Why would the tweaking you mention only work for conquests? Even if scientists don't make enough beakers to bring research down a whole turn, being able to set research at (ie) 10% instead of 50% the final turn will return more cash than if you had taxmen the whole time, provided you do balance out the taxmen the final turn also. However, if you try to shave it down to the last one or two beakers and an enemy crosses over the wrong tile...

	09-03-2005 17:41									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Two instances in which I use Scientists:

1) When starving off foreign population in a freshly-conquered (and often corrupt) city.

2) When Sanitation is not available and a given city has squares that do not yield enough benefit (usually due to corruption and waste) to be more valuable than 3 beakers. Note that food is not part of the equation only in this specific case.

I tend to have a high (>50%) science rate and more libraries than marketplaces; relying on my own scientific power. Yes, that works only after subjecting and tech-extorting a number of neighbours.

	09-03-2005 19:52									#26
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Note that unless your scientists are allowed you to tweak down the slider on the last turns more than otherwise, that their beakers are going to waste.

quote: Originally posted by Grim Legacy Two instances in which I use Scientists: 1) When starving off foreign population in a freshly-conquered (and often corrupt) city. 2) When Sanitation is not available and a given city has squares that do not yield enough benefit (usually due to corruption and waste) to be more valuable than 3 beakers. Note that food is not part of the equation only in this specific case. I tend to have a high (>50%) science rate and more libraries than marketplaces; relying on my own scientific power. Yes, that works only after subjecting and tech-extorting a number of neighbours.

	09-03-2005 19:59									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I have to say that I agree with Dom on this (as usual )

I have often switched 6 or 7 labourers to Scientists in order to shave a turn off research, in cities that can afford the loss of food.

As jon says though, sometimes it's a bit of a gamble, but I've found more often than not that it pays off, since on that final turn you can gain more gold by dropping the slider down to minimal levels of 10% or 20%....but you sometimes don't really know until the final turn of research whether the gamble pays off.

So I don't agree that it's mainly a Conquests strategy. It often works in an epic game, even into the Industrial era.

	09-03-2005 21:26									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Note that unless your scientists are allowed you to tweak down the slider on the last turns more than otherwise, that their beakers are going to waste.

Right, that's a valid caveat.

	09-03-2005 21:48									#29
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In my own game when I find the last turn can be done at 10 or 20% research, it usually means an AI just beat me out to that tech by half a turn.

	09-03-2005 23:40									#30
	Inflate your Upload Space

To further tweak the science slider, I sometimes check it with two turns left- to decrease the beakers lost at 10% the final turn if the AI beats me to the tech...