04-03-2005 05:33									#1
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Well it happened today, and as usual, I take a perverse pleasure in seeing people's reactions.

We've been reading Plato's Republic and the topic of Greek homosexuality came up, as it inevitably does.

Some confused looks in the class.

So I said, "for anyone that hasn't noticed, all the characters are gay. Yes, gay. Quite gay. In fact very gay."

It wasn't so bad this time, but there were a few shocked looks as it dawned on a few people. How they'd missed the bit where the characters start talking about the cutest sort of boys is beyond me. It amazes me that anyone could read Plato without realizing.

One day I hope no-one will bat an eyelid. Maybe it's the term philopaides that puts them off.

At least it's better than back home, where once some farmer's kid erupted with "are you saying they're all faggots!?!"

That was a truly cringeworthy moment.

	04-03-2005 05:56									#2
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How olds are you teaching?


Western society is so pervert these days

I guess it would be usefull to tell them that male-male or even men-teenage boy relationships were considered valuable and educational experience, in case you want to build up your image as the dirty old man you could wink at some of the handsome boys in the class

Last edited by laurentius on 04-03-2005 at 06:31

	04-03-2005 06:02									#3
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They are bisexual, not gay. Damn you're a bad philosophy teacher.

	04-03-2005 06:03									#4
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They were irrelevant, not gay or bi.

	04-03-2005 06:05									#5
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quote: They are bisexual, not gay. Damn you're a bad philosophy teacher.

Don't be picky.

I have a hard enough time trying to explain it, since they would be regarded as paedophiles in today's society.

	04-03-2005 06:05									#6
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Who were irrelevant?

People have such an obsession with their sexuality these days. I mean who cares?

	04-03-2005 06:24									#7
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Isn't it true that gay/straight is a fairly modern typology? I don't think the ancient Greeks saw sexuality as constituting an 'identity', so much as a set of practices...
So yes, from our perspective, they were gay... but for them they were men (or citizens or Greeks or philosophers or whatever), who had sex with boys.

The symposium is another interesting text re: discussing homosexual acts.

	04-03-2005 06:26									#8
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quote: Isn't it true that gay/straight is a fairly modern typology?

It was somewhat controversial in Athens. Plato has an ambivalent attitude towards it.

The man/boy love thing is the most disturbing part of it, but then again Greek women were married off at the same age, so I suppose they were at least consistent.

I'm not surprised that Greek men turned to other men. Most Greek women would have been pretty boring after being cooped up inside all the time.

	04-03-2005 06:29									#9
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Do you mean to make your course more appealing, or you really think that discussing the dialogue's homosexual caracteristics is of philosophical interest?

	04-03-2005 06:31									#10
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quote: Do you mean to make your course more appealing, or you really think that discussing the dialogue's homosexual caracteristics is of philosophical interest?

No. I usually don't introduce it, unless there is some reason to (cultural diversity). But what usually happens is that some student asks about it, and I have to explain (to the horror of some of the more conservative students).

	04-03-2005 06:34									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Dracon II Isn't it true that gay/straight is a fairly modern typology? I don't think the ancient Greeks saw sexuality as constituting an 'identity', so much as a set of practices... So yes, from our perspective, they were gay... but for them they were men (or citizens or Greeks or philosophers or whatever), who had sex with boys.

Yeah, plus the ancient Greeks hated women and thought they were almost worthless, IIRC.

	04-03-2005 06:35									#12
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Wise men.

	04-03-2005 06:37									#13
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quote: Yeah, plus the ancient Greeks hated women and thought they were almost worthless, IIRC.

Except the hetaeras.

	04-03-2005 06:52									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Do you mean to make your course more appealing, or you really think that discussing the dialogue's homosexual caracteristics is of philosophical interest?

Could be interesting as part of a discussion on the historical relativity of cultural mores. Not sure if that would be a philosophical or anthropological. Seems to manifest itself in the hollywood version of Troy, in which Patroclus is Achilles' nephew (or cousin?), rather than his lover. Although in Alexander, there seems to be (albeit not explicit) extremely obvious themes of homosexual love.

Interesting in Greece was the relationship between homosexuality and the military... like that unit of Theban hoplites which consisted entirely of lovers willing to die for each other. Perhaps it went hand in hand with the Greek cult of the male body, where there was a certain fusion of strength and beauty. Might be a recurring meme, given that gymnasiums nowadays are a favoured haunt for many gay men.

	04-03-2005 06:55									#15
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I gym 4 times a week, baby!

	04-03-2005 06:58									#16
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But do you haunt?

	04-03-2005 07:15									#17
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I think Agathon misses the pupil/teacher relationships

I have frequent images of Xenophon and Plato suckling at the great Socratic teat...

	04-03-2005 07:19									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy I think Agathon misses the pupil/teacher relationships I have frequent images of Xenophon and Plato suckling at the great Socratic teat...

...meanwhile, Van Halen plays in the background

He's got it bad, he's got it bad, he's got it bad... He's hot for teacher

	04-03-2005 07:23									#19
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quote: ...meanwhile, Van Halen plays in the background He's got it bad, he's got it bad, he's got it bad... He's hot for teacher

Well I had the idea of learning Greek so I could rap Protagoros to a drum sample of Led Zep's "When the levee breaks", but I do believe you have bested me!

	04-03-2005 11:40									#20
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*deleted obscenities*

Last edited by Dracon II on 04-03-2005 at 11:57

	04-03-2005 11:57									#21
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quote: This post will be deleted I'm sure

Why?

	04-03-2005 12:02									#22
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Too many references to philsophers sodomizing and being sodomized.

	04-03-2005 16:05									#24
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What would it be like if I attended your class. I could call you a commie and you could question my SC record. It would be such nerdy class. Then we could get into heated arguments, and wrestle naked in the middle of the class.

	04-03-2005 16:13									#25
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what uni do you teach at? what kinda programs do they offer international students?
I want to maybe do a master's degree overseas sometime in the next couple of years... just been canvassing some options. I've been focussing on Canada... mainly because I wanna go to an english country that isn't as expensive as england, not as crazy as the USA, not as dangerous as South Africa and not as sheep-loving as New Zealand.

	04-03-2005 17:07									#26
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I'm looking forward to my special tutoring sessions where I get one kid one-on-one for eight hours a week of pure history for three weeks.
bwaaa ha ha!

	04-03-2005 17:13									#27
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In college there was a human sexuality class which supposedly had a critical evaluation of several porn flicks. The class was always over booked and I could never get a spot.

	04-03-2005 18:52									#28
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I suppose any piece of cultural trash is legitimate if you tack on a veneer of semiotics and call it a class.

	04-03-2005 18:58									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Wycoff Yeah, plus the ancient Greeks hated women and thought they were almost worthless, IIRC.

Not the Spartans.