06-03-2005 21:03									#61
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Premeditated killing doesn't require self-awareness.

	06-03-2005 21:07									#62
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How do you plan out a hypothetical future without placing yourself within it?

	06-03-2005 21:13									#63
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You don't have to. Many animals hunt and use sophisticated premeditated techniques. Doesn't make them self-aware. They won't recognize themselves in the mirror, for example.

	06-03-2005 21:20									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel You don't have to. Many animals hunt and use sophisticated premeditated techniques. Doesn't make them self-aware. They won't recognize themselves in the mirror, for example.

Premeditation isn't really a helpful word when being used of animals, since it has a legal meaning when related to killing in the human sphere of experience.

It brings to mind gangster chimpanzees and orang utans poisoning troop leaders for advancement, or male or haremless male elephant seals planning gang rapes.

	06-03-2005 21:23									#65
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Well, that's true, however, what one means by that, I presume, is an animal that is out there with killing something in it's mind, and then, it kills it.

	06-03-2005 21:34									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Well, that's true, however, what one means by that, I presume, is an animal that is out there with killing something in it's mind, and then, it kills it.

Yes, but some spiders produce webs. Insects (and birds, and lizards) fly or walk into them, whereupon the spider is not reduced to takeout from arachnid McDonalds, or grabbing food from dumpsters or Hare Krishna handouts.

This is not evidence of premeditation, nor of good taste.


Similarly, pitcher plants and venus flytraps entrap their food too, as do angler fish, some wasps, octopuses, et cetera. Just instinct and evolution doin' their thang, not evidence of a nefarious intent.

	06-03-2005 21:39									#67
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That's quite different. Neither spiders, nor carnivore plants use their central nervous system to construct plots that intentionally lead to the capture and death of their pray. The former construct the web without expecting it to capture prey, the latter don't expect anything, and the closure of the trap is a reflex, nothing more.

	06-03-2005 21:45									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel That's quite different. Neither spiders, nor carnivore plants use their central nervous system to construct plots that intentionally lead to the capture and death of their pray. The former construct the web without expecting it to capture prey....

Errr.... so you're suggesting it's for decoration ?

Webspinning spiders produce the web so they can have food to eat. It's instinct.

	06-03-2005 21:48									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat How do you plan out a hypothetical future without placing yourself within it?

Even that doesn't make you self-aware.

	06-03-2005 21:50									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Well, that's true, however, what one means by that, I presume, is an animal that is out there with killing something in it's mind, and then, it kills it.

While the behavior may not appear to have any evolutionary purpose, the same behavioral traits in humans for group cohesion are (mostly, with some notable exceptions) present in chimps and presumably so are their side effects.

	06-03-2005 21:52									#71
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Azazel, killing for food is completely different to killing for pleasure which is a charactistic of male chimps. Killing for food merely requires a kind of psychosexual urge for consumption for want of a better phrase, murder is a far more complex manifestation of that, relating back to what Kuci said about group cohesion.

	06-03-2005 22:39									#72
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quote: Azazel, killing for food is completely different to killing for pleasure which is a charactistic of male chimps. Killing for food merely requires a kind of psychosexual urge for consumption for want of a better phrase, murder is a far more complex manifestation of that, relating back to what Kuci said about group cohesion.

I am not sure about that, esp. if you consider all the evidences that hunters enjoy their hunt, e.g. playing with the pray before killing it, etc.

	06-03-2005 22:42									#73
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quote: if you consider all the evidences that hunters enjoy their hunt, e.g. playing with the pray before killing it, etc

Specifically?

I'd expect apes to "enjoy" it, as you put it, as well as many other higher mammals, but what of birds and large reptiles and other hunters?

	06-03-2005 23:26									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Well, that's true, however, what one means by that, I presume, is an animal that is out there with killing something in it's mind, and then, it kills it.

No, by premeditation I mean the intent of killing something for purely theoretical or 'artificial' reasons.

Lions do stalk animals, but they do it for a very basic and obvious reason, need for food. Many animals, includng chimps and lions, will kill animals they perceieve as a threat, including infant males for specieis were males compete for breeding rights.

Now, human, because they can make up **** in their minds about the futurte, can choose to kill something based on a lot of reasons that do not exist to animals. Put a man in a forest, and it may decide, well, I want to test my "honor" by killing a chimp, and then be violent for that complete inane artificial reason. A chimp in nature would have very, very few reasons to even attempt to go after a human, period.

So in the example you gave, the fact is a chimp wopuld 99 out of 100 not even attempt anything against the human, while the human being can at choice decide to kill.

	06-03-2005 23:52									#75
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but in the example above, some chimps to kill their young for purely "emotional" reasons. there is no survival involved.

And if you think about it, humans kill for nearly the same reasons.

Some males will kill the young if they suspect it's not theirs (depends on species). Humans sometimes kill for the same reasons.

Some differences though, are some humans seem to kill just for the fun of it. But we normally classify these as having some kind of psychiatric disorder. Those aren't normal human brains.

	07-03-2005 00:16									#76
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quote: Originally posted by GePap So in the example you gave, the fact is a chimp wopuld 99 out of 100 not even attempt anything against the human, while the human being can at choice decide to kill.

Yes, but in 99 out of 100 cases the human probably wouldn't attempt to kill the chimp either.

	07-03-2005 17:45									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident but in the example above, some chimps to kill their young for purely "emotional" reasons. there is no survival involved.

Not quite true, I suspect . Male lions on assuming control of a pride by having defeated the previous leader, will kill cubs of that leader. The lioness whose cubs they were rather than bewail her lot like Andromache or Hecuba will come into oestrus and promptly set about trying to get more cubs by the victorious lion.

Not a Greek tragedy, just the lion way of propagating the species.

" Reproduction

Females will tend to come into oestrus simultaneously and thus most of the cubs are born at the same time. Lionesses give birth to 2-5 cubs, after a gestation period of 100-116 days. The cubs are cared for by all the females in the pride, and will suckle from other females as well as from their mother.

Fourteen to seventy three per cent of all lion cubs die before they reach the age of two (varies according to location). A new male in a pride will kill all the cubs which has the effect of bringing the females into oestrus. This means that only he will be the father of the cubs in the pride. "


http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/wildfac...tfiles/14.shtml


Primates:

" Relative behaviour

[...] Chimps and gorillas were long considered to be relatively docile and placid creatures, but today we know that they can be vicious killers. In gorillas, the killing is usually done by lone males, intent on displacing a male rival in order to gain access to a harem of females. And sometimes the loser is not the only one who gets killed. A victorious male may extend the slaughter to include the loser's infant offspring.

Chimps can take killing to a more sinister level. Acting in small, roving gangs, they have been seen making commando-style raids on neighbouring chimp groups, singling out individuals for slaughter. These kinds of attacks can go on, intermittently, for years, until all rivals are killed or evicted.

Animal 'wars' like these, are not exclusive to chimps. Many other social species, such as ants, lions, hyenas and wolves commit similar concerted acts of violence against their rivals. If nothing else, these examples illustrate that our own violent history is not unprecedented in animal terms. "

http://www.channel4.com/science/mic...ty/killing.html