07-03-2005 23:38									#1
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This is the latest city plan (as proposed by Godking)



As everyone can see there is space for 7 cities with one in question.
Modo has suggested we can build 13 more cities.

I'm waiting for his plan and for eveyone's opinion where and how to build the next cities. In the next 5 turns we will have 4 settler to build new towns. This means we don't have much time.

Otherwise we are going with GK's plan and need only to discuss Togas suggestion.

Last edited by ormuzd on 07-03-2005 at 23:57

	07-03-2005 23:55									#2
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I used the screenie provided by you, as I have no save. I do not receive it and even if I would, I still need the password (could not find it ).

I put black dots in city locations I (re)moved.

The city north of Sidiros Lofos might be a mistake, as it could benefit early from a Chop and the Grassland that lays on the northern tip of the peninsula. Personally, I would put it on the Desert.

Attachment: city planning 2 (ver modo).jpg
This has been downloaded 55 time(s).

	08-03-2005 00:03									#3
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Thank you for the fast reply

If I have expected it I could make the topic poll - the polls attract more people

I can resend you the latest save if you want. If you want to receive the save you sould be included in White Bandit's mailing list but does this happen I don't know. I haven't seen him around, maybe a PM will work. Or maybe Togas knows?

And can email the password to you because I don't want to put it here - security issues, you know

	08-03-2005 00:18									#4
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Well, you can hardly make polls about city locations, except if you let everyone make their own plan ( and vote for it ).

The picture I see here is a very loose pattern. Looks pretty, but looks inefficient at the same time. Too late to change now, as disbanding built up cities is hardly an option. But at least we can salvage something by placing the last ones tighter.

If you do send me the save, expect more nitpicking. Are you sure you want this? a TOD swicki TOD private TA wp TOD pl

	08-03-2005 01:19									#5
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I like God Kings plan better considering the time.

There's also the OCN to think about.

Plus I see extra tiles not used at all by some of these.

Namely: North of Sidros Loths. Modo's removes several sea tiles from ever being used while noticably squeezing in Sidros Loths.

NW Helos: Appears to me to be non useful once Hellios gets an Aquaduct. (The other already has a free one) Shields it can build offset by additional shields lost by cities fruther from the capital.

Infill city west of Apolyton: Very late now to build as a camp. Increased corruption will be greatly more than it will bring in at this point.

Splitting SE small island into two cities: Very OCN problematic, those cites are actually pretty close to the capital in a food problem area. Would likely also increase corruption more than they would bring in.

Moving ciites closer to PAL : Prohibited by treaty with PAL.

Tundra in the SE. Similarly, our empire now has so many cities that splitting them would cost more shields in corruption from cities further away than they would bring in.

Note that this is an elimination game, all we need to do is be in the top 3. The best way to do this at this point is to not make PAL nervous. Our FM has been very busy keeping some level of independance from our more powerful northern neighbor.

	08-03-2005 02:34									#6
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Obviously I lack basic knowledge about this specific game, because making so few cities seems awfully suicidal to me. I admit I do not play Elimination, so perhaps I am missing some obvious points here. Seriously, I never played this kind of game. Let me ask you some questions.

• Is there a fixed limit of cities allowed in this game?
  
• How do you expect to make up for the unit upkeep lost in the future (up to 6gpt per city in Republic, once they get to size 7)? Or will we not need it?
  
• Why would you plan to just drop working some tiles completely, while at the same time disregarding a rather nice benefit which requires leaving some Sea tiles alone? Note, that the 7-city plan leaves a lot more unclaimed Coast and Sea tiles, than the moving of the one light-blue city spot to the south.
  
• Why do you expect the OCN to hurt us? Will those 4-5 cities more make us have 95% corrupt settlements? Because if not, well bring on the corruption and I can give you Courthouses and the FP. They seemed to work just fine last time I checked.

Attachment: city planning 2 (ver 2 modo).jpg
This has been downloaded 51 time(s).

	08-03-2005 03:18									#7
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I like the second plan better

but I'm expecting a little bit more input from the other members of the team too

	08-03-2005 22:26									#8
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FP has already been built. It's in Hypthos. Built when we got beat out to the Musieum by a couple of turns. (And don't have Monarchy)

No set limit on cities. Just OCN to consider.

On Spilting the island site, the southern one on the mainland is in a severe food shortage area. Appearing to only ever work a hill, desert, and coast tiles. Raw shield production once the area is improved : 5. Appernt CN : 8! Really bad for OCN purposes.
5 spt kind of low to build Knights [whenever we acquire that tech.]

SW of mountain:

Appears to max work two plains, two hills. Raw shield production 8. Appenert CN : Around 10. Better than the previous case, but still kind of bad. Possible if used as a camp after we have enough units allowed to support having two camps.

Tundra area:

A. Simply relocating black tile to souther red tile. No objection.

B. Second city near it. CN high enough to not matter at this point. If built, should be treated as a military camp. This also means we need a few size 7 cities first.

North of Sidros Lofos: Objection to moving it south one tile withdrawn.

North of Athena's Hunting Ground: Due to treaty with PAL doesn't look like a useful camp to me. It would just delay when we could found the permeant city NE.

Republic's support for towns (size 1 - 6) not really a factor, that's not enough for it's own defender + worker.

Only Republic's support for size 7+ matters. We are commerical and so have lots of incentives for them.

Camps have been very low prioirty because we've had a lot of unit support problems, and camps tend to produce units. Consequently, both camp sites are lower prioirty than all permenent cities.

Also note that on the city builds, the three northern most cities are prohbited to be built until either all other cities are built or Pumpkinhead is turned over to us. (Whichever is first.) The language did not consider camps.

	08-03-2005 22:36									#9
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The agreement was to build the dark blue site last and get Pumpkinland after this

about the northern tundra city - do we need it?

Both opinions are very detailed and I started wondering what to do when the next save arrives

	08-03-2005 22:59									#10
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn On Spilting the island site, the southern one on the mainland is in a severe food shortage area. Appearing to only ever work a hill, desert, and coast tiles. Raw shield production once the area is improved : 5. Appernt CN : 8! Really bad for OCN purposes. 5 spt kind of low to build Knights [whenever we acquire that tech.] SW of mountain: Appears to max work two plains, two hills. Raw shield production 8. Appenert CN : Around 10. Better than the previous case, but still kind of bad. Possible if used as a camp after we have enough units allowed to support having two camps.

Ok, I see your point. The cities will have bad production potential, and they will develop slowly. But those three are simply Fishing Villages to me. The Hills add at least some production potential to make cheap units, if in need. I see no harm in making them, even if they are last to be built. Let them do their thing slowly - I am sure we can use the cash they would provide.

By the way, the southern of the split island cities could have a Flood Plain for food.

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn North of Athena's Hunting Ground: Due to treaty with PAL doesn't look like a useful camp to me. It would just delay when we could found the permeant city NE.

Yes, that is why I made the dot smaller, considering maybe a temporary city. I am not sure about it - it was forced by the three cities I did not move. If the treaty with PAL would keep us from making other cities, then yes - this one needs to go. Low priority anyway.

	09-03-2005 04:49									#11
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Good discussion. Here are a couple of points that haven't been made (I will refrain from making repeat comments I hope.)

Tundra city - located to be able to use all ocean resources (fish). It is otherwise a gold producer only, not shields.

We are hurting to make population. Our objective is to have a good number of cities that will be optimal producers. Size 9 will be our max, and we should use it to our advantage by making sure our cities will be able to use all 9 tiles effectively.

We are slow growing, and each new settler kills a city just as it was getting productive. We wanted to max our land, while minimizing our pop. This plan was

	09-03-2005 12:56									#12
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GodKing, it seems a part of your post is gone missing.

As to groth, there are Granaries, but I am sure you know that.

One thing I have trouble understanding. Why would you want to minimize population.

	09-03-2005 20:03									#13
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Looks exactly like GK's post cut off at 255 characters

I don't understand why we want cities to stop growing at 9 either. Why not 12 by the end of middle ages (with Temples, MPs, and Catherdrials everywhere) Not that this matters much at this point given the ongoing REX.

	09-03-2005 20:08									#14
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We should be ready with troops and ships after 40 turns

	09-03-2005 21:31									#15
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Good discussion. Here are a couple of points that haven't been made (I will refrain from making repeat comments I hope.)

Tundra city - located to be able to use all ocean resources (fish). It is otherwise a gold producer only, not shields.

We are hurting to make population. Our objective is to have a good number of cities that will be optimal producers. Size 9 will be our max, and we should use it to our advantage by making sure our cities will be able to use all 9 tiles effectively.

We are slow growing, and each new settler kills a city just as it was getting productive. We wanted to max our land, while minimizing our pop loss. This loss is caused by worker and settler production. The fewer settlers produced, that means that 30 shields go towards a market or library, and 2 people that are being kept productive. We are short by about 10 workers from what I would like to have considering the size of our empire and the number of cities we have. These workers will cause, unfortunately, more pop loss AND unit support. As of the end of the last turn, we have 33 units and support for only 20. This is very expensive. The 2 setters (and 5 more in the queue) will provide short term hurt but long term relief.

The size 9 is based off of our current growth potential. We will need to build aqueducts and temples at this rate. Above size 9, we will either have to create entertainers or start playing with the lux slider. As our goal is to maximize gold and science, the lux slider is a last resort (but a handy one to keep in mind).

I readily admit that there are a couple more sites that can be settled nicely. And if this game continues, we will do so as our pop and scheduling permits. The west coast is a prime example – there is a nice small gap that can be filled with a nice city. It will be a good one to add in extra workers to as well assuming we are worked out (which I doubt will happen until after RR).

Remember our position in this game – we are here to supply PAL with gold and science. Maximizing those is our standard, not maximizing shields as is normal. This is a hard adjustment to make, as after all, having libraries and markets is necessary to increase both, and you need the shields to build them (or 4 gold per shield to buy them).

	09-03-2005 21:54									#16
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On the Tundra area, the black dot misses the whale. (2-2)
The southern Red dot takes in both fishes and the whale.
(4-7, 8-9, 1-1)

	09-03-2005 22:15									#17
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So does this mean the 7 cities are simply the more important ones, planned to be built first? And if the game lasts longer, the plan was to make a couple more? The cities I added are in fact low-priority, so this would make perfect sense.

If making Settlers "kills" our cities as you say, then we should simply designate a pump or two, and let others grow normally. This might be more for the domestic office, but I think it relates to this subject. Do we have Granaries in most cities, or do we not?

	09-03-2005 22:41									#18
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Extremely few Granaries are in our empire.

PAL has the Pyramids.

quote: Originally posted by Modo44 So does this mean the 7 cities are simply the more important ones, planned to be built first? And if the game lasts longer, the plan was to make a couple more? The cities I added are in fact low-priority, so this would make perfect sense. If making Settlers "kills" our cities as you say, then we should simply designate a pump or two, and let others grow normally. This might be more for the domestic office, but I think it relates to this subject. Do we have Granaries in most cities, or do we not?

	10-03-2005 00:28									#19
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Well, here is the problem, then. Building other infrastructure is good, but it would be much better if we had the population to actually use that. Right now cities are not only building slowly, but also have much less income due to the slow growth. Not to mention we seem to have few Workers. Instead of getting a Market to boost the income directly, one can make a Granary, and get the population up to achieve the same. Only tyhing is, the population will probably add production, making further builds go quicker - something a Market does much worse (4 Gold per 1 Shield is the ratio...). This is pretty basic strategy: pop is power.

Last edited by Modo44 on 10-03-2005 at 00:34

	10-03-2005 07:41									#20
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True, but our land is generally crappy. In all relevant cities, grainaries are being produced or have been made.

Really, we expect this game to be over with in the next 50-80 turns. Our role in this game is a support one. That's it. We are not trying to go to the very end. We are trying to support PAL and make ourselves usefull to them in this game. They are the monster here.

	10-03-2005 13:42									#21
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You mean 50-80 turns until we die, or until the game ends and we get 3rd place?

And this land is not crappy IMO. Lots of Grassland (superb) and Plains (very good, quicker to improve than Grassland). Deserts are there for later, but can be worked as we have Flood Plains. Flood Plains which in turn provide food (read: Workers). Yes, I know it is too late to change much now.

	10-03-2005 13:45									#22
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50-80 turns until GWT and CDG are eliminated

	12-03-2005 02:35									#23
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The second plan is fine by me. Due to the nature of this game (an elimination game) I'm less picky about cities that may be marginally better in the long run.

But I do think that we should settle cities that can get us production (and commerce!) NOW as opposed to cities that will require a lot of sheild and time to be productive. Building up our population and making coastal (and river) cities that can help our commerce out has to be a priority.

--Togas

	12-03-2005 04:26									#24
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With only 50 to 80 turns left in the game.

1. Remove all the proposed camp sites from the plan. We won't ever get enough use of them to make them worth while.

2. Eliminate the proposed city sites involving building a Harbor to make them grow to 7. It simply won't complete in time to help the economy if we have to build the Harbor non rushing + an aquaduct. And if cash-rushed, might not pay for itself before game runs out.

3. Go for fewer cities in an area instead of multiple ones. It takes time to make up for the loss of population in the starting area, and we're starting to run short.

4. That goody hut location if no one else pops it should be the site of the next city. Pop the hut via forming the city. This has a chance of giving an immedate payoff.