10-03-2005 18:40									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist I'm not going to dig thru a bunch of Iraq threads for your benefit, I'm sorry.

Too bad.

quote: They're attacking you.

And we are killing them. Any criminal deserves punishment, not a negotiation table.
Would you negotiate with thugs who attacked you and whose only intention is to kill you?

	10-03-2005 18:43									#62
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Who cares about what they deserve? The issue you should be addressing is whether negotiating with them might lead to a swifter and less bloddy end to the conflict.

	10-03-2005 18:47									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Who cares about what they deserve?

We do, they kill our children not yours.

quote: The issue you should be addressing is whether negotiating with them might lead to a swifter and less bloddy end to the conflict.

Once again, you are attacked by gang of thugs. Some of them want to rob you, some of them want to kill you, because they were paid for killing you. Would you negotiate with them or try to protect your self?

	10-03-2005 19:21									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Serb I thought ObL is the most wanted bastard in US, so what US reaction could be in case if BBC post an article about ObL being a hero? I'm just curious.

we'd despise the BBC for their sympathy with terrorists.

How would that differ from the current situation?

	10-03-2005 19:40									#65
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It doesn't? Really?

	10-03-2005 19:57									#66
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With regards to Beslan, I have only seen denials of responsibility from Maskhadov. Where/when did he admit to taking part in the planning of the attack in Beslan?

	10-03-2005 23:18									#67
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He did not.

	10-03-2005 23:48									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Sure, and the fact that he himself said he was involved in planning of both Nord Ost and Beslan, sure makes him a great negotiator and sure shows how unbiased and honest your media is. You can find war in Iraq. In Chechnya you can find Russian Spetcnaz killing f*cking terrorists like Maskhadov.

Bs, he condemned the attack on the besland school. In fact he said he would get rid of basayev himself if he could get him. Get your facts straight. Basayev is the one that wants an strong islamic state, and he's the one doing terrorist attacks. Maschadov was a negotiator and he has split up with Basayev for a long tiem already. After all Maschadov was the one that got a treaty with the Russians in '97 iirc. After hostilities began once again later on he offered numerous times to talk with the Russians, but the Russians refused; they obstinately keep the war going on.
Seriously... what kind of propaganda have you been listening to!? The official Putin statements?

	11-03-2005 01:48									#69
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Serb, at some point you will have to start negotiating with some Chechen leader. The only other alternative is to kill all of them, and I hope you understand this is not possible (not from a moral, politcal or realistic point of view).

In one way his death could be good. Russian propaganda had made him one of the main terrorists, so they could not lose face by starting negotiations with him. At the same time, he was strong enough in Chechnya to make sure nobody else took the "head negotiatior" position. So maybe (this is of course a big maybe), some peace-minded person accepted by Russia will take over the leader role and start a real progress to peace.

Or then Basajev and other islamistic terrorists will keep the war going for another 20 years.

	11-03-2005 01:58									#70
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quote: No. Russia already withdrew in the mid-90s from the area. The result was massive groundwork creation of terrorist cells in mainland Russia, which came and bit them in the butt later on. The hasty comparisons you're making between the motives of Putin (trying to destroy terrorists) and motives of Johnson (trying to look good on history books, "I just can't be the architecht of surrender") just show of how little you know about the subject.

You're not replying to the right person, me thinks.

quote: With regards to Beslan, I have only seen denials of responsibility from Maskhadov. Where/when did he admit to taking part in the planning of the attack in Beslan?

IIRC he even condemned them.


In any case, all of the occurances in Eastern europe are pure power clash of many interests.

	11-03-2005 10:38									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Just in case if anyone would, do you really wouldn't care about this?

Not really. I realize that there are a few people who are so proud of their ignorance that they feel the need to display it.

	11-03-2005 10:44									#72
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I'm with Serb on one thing - Terrorists deserve being shot in the head. No negotiations.

	11-03-2005 20:57									#73
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The problem is Russian definition of terrorists

	11-03-2005 21:20									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Trajanus Get your facts straight. Basayev is the one that wants an strong islamic state, and he's the one doing terrorist attacks. Maschadov was a negotiator and he has split up with Basayev for a long tiem already.

My understanding is that the Maskadov-Besayev relationship has been more complex than that in recent years.

	12-03-2005 22:56									#75
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quote: Originally posted by pchang With regards to Beslan, I have only seen denials of responsibility from Maskhadov. Where/when did he admit to taking part in the planning of the attack in Beslan?

Where/when did Saddam admit to taking part in the palnning of the 911 attack? Where/when did Saddam admit that Iraq is developing his WMD? With regards to 911 and Iraqis WMD, I have only seen denials of responsibility from Saddam.
The difference is that Saddam spoke true, while Maskhadov (despite I've never heard any denials from him) lied.

	13-03-2005 00:27									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Trajanus Bs, he condemned the attack on the besland school.

Really, he did? When?
And how the hell it correspods with the fact that he was one of the organizers of this attack? Perhaps you have no idea, but we here in Russia have special services who investigate crimes to find the ****s who organized such crimes. Sometimes we even caught some terrorists alive (like how it was in Beslan) to get some info about ****s who ordered this bloodbath and what were their intentions.

quote: In fact he said he would get rid of basayev himself if he could get him.

Yeah, right.
That's why Basaev was his prime minister and defense minister when Chechnya was de-facto independent. That's why he awarded him everytime when there was a loud terrorist attack against Russia.
Sell your bridges elsewhere,

quote: Get your facts straight. Basayev is the one that wants an strong islamic state, and he's the one doing terrorist attacks.

I guess, according to your "facts", it was Basayev, but not Maskhadov who introduced the Sharia law in Chechnya in 1999 while it was de-facto independent and thus doomed to death thousands of people of different faith, nationality or sexual orientation who were unlucky to be there?
It was only Basaev's fault that betwenn 1996-1999 after every Maskhadov's speech dedicted to some kind of local holliday, there usally was a mass execution of unfaithfull on the central square of Grozny.
It wasn't Maskhadov who was in Charge of Chechnya when tens of thousands of Russian and hundreds of foreign citizens being kidnaped and enslaved there, when Christians, and Muslims who denied Vakhabism were burned alive.

quote: Maschadov was a negotiator and he has split up with Basayev for a long tiem already.

Yeah, right.
I've seen a 2004 video tapes where these two bastards were discussing something (probably new attack), while laughing, shaking each others hands. I've seen how they share their meal while friendly speaking and laughing. It was just a few months ago (FYI, a Muslim would never share his meal with his enemy).
Pretty mortal enemies, if you ask me.

quote: After all Maschadov was the one that got a treaty with the Russians in '97 iirc.

Look mofo, let's make a deal, I wouldn't lecture you about Belgium monarchists or Belgium atrocities in Kongo (because I'm not sure I posses enough knowledge to do so) and you wouldn't lecture me about Russia. Ok?
You have no idea what you are talking about and still dare to educate me who live in Russia and who whitnesed and still perfectly remember all those events.
FYI, Maskhadov signed a Hasaviurt treaty with Russian general Lebed in 1996, not 1997. According to this treaty all Russian soldiers and cops should have been withdrawn from Chechnya. After this treaty Chechnya for a three years became a de-facto independent state. The Kremlin lost any control over the region. You call it negotiations? I call it unconditional surrender.

quote: After hostilities began once again later on he offered numerous times to talk with the Russians, but the Russians refused; they obstinately keep the war going on.

Yeah, right.
First of all, who started those hostilities?
Next, what the hell he could do else? Imagine Hitler (who's hidding his as$ in bunker), asking for negotiations about unconditional surrender of the USSR while the Red Army is on outskirts of Berlin already. Maskhadov did the same- his so-called army was f*cked within months, he himself was hidding his as$ in some kind of stinking pit (where he found his death later) and still asking for negotiations about Russian surrender.
No f*cking way.

quote: Seriously... what kind of propaganda have you been listening to!? The official Putin statements?

Seriously... what kind of blind are you? Your media (directed by your governments) keep telling you BS stories about continued resistance and about good and honarable freedom fighters and you keep eating this sh!t.
Turn on your brains and read something non-western about the situation. Free you Godddamn mind, study the facts.
FYI, Maskhadov was in international search as international terrorist since 2001. Now cry a river, because Russians finally found him.

	13-03-2005 00:34									#77
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What Saddam has to fo with it?
It reminds me a joke about Soviet computer which on every criticisement of USSR relied that in USA black people are beaten.

How do You know Maschadow lied, Serb (not to mention that You claimed that He was praising Nord Ost and Beslan)?

	13-03-2005 00:52									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Hurricane Serb, at some point you will have to start negotiating with some Chechen leader.

With the same success, Soviets had to negotiate with some kind of "German leader" among SS freaks or any other fanatical dicks who still fought against the Red Army in 1946 or even in 1947.

quote: The only other alternative is to kill all of them, and I hope you understand this is not possible (not from a moral, politcal or realistic point of view).

We will kill all of them if they wouldn't surrender to get their life sentanse. Every terrorist who kills innocent people and especially children deserves death. NOBODY negotiate with terrorists, why should we?

quote: In one way his death could be good. Russian propaganda had made him one of the main terrorists, so they could not lose face by starting negotiations with him.

He made himself a terrorist, nobody else.

quote: At the same time, he was strong enough in Chechnya to make sure nobody else took the "head negotiatior" position.

Head negotiator?
Look, this sh!t is for westerners. It' old good, well proven game of good and evil cop. Basaev is the evil cop who terrorize and Maskadov is the good one who offers you to addmit your responsibility for the crime you've never done.
They are the same. They are the team. They do it together.

quote: So maybe (this is of course a big maybe), some peace-minded person accepted by Russia will take over the leader role and start a real progress to peace.

Such persons were already ELECTED BY CHECHEN PEOPLE. The first was Kadyrov, that's why Maskhadov and Basaev killed him.
When the hell you'll understand that several hudrends of fanatical terrorists do not represent the CHECHEN PEOPLE?

quote: Or then Basajev and other islamistic terrorists will keep the war going for another 20 years.

What war?
I can see a war in Iraq where explosions that kills dozens of people happens EVERYDAY and I can see as well that resistance there is growing on daily basis.
I can't see the same in Chechnya. I can't see the war there. Basayev and remains of his gang are being systematicaly hunt down and eliminated by Russians. They have no strengh to wage the same scale of warfare as we can see in Iraq and their strengh is dissapearing everyday. So keep your advices for yoursellf. Russia dosn't need your Western "help" in this matter.

	13-03-2005 00:55									#79
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark My understanding is that the Maskadov-Besayev relationship has been more complex than that in recent years.

Sure, it was relations of master and servant. Maskhadov feared Basayev as hell and had no any real power. His role was to play a "good cop", to begging for help from the West.

	13-03-2005 01:04									#80
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You again?

quote: Originally posted by Heresson What Saddam has to fo with it?

Nothing except that he claimed himself not guilty, as well (it was a reply to a statement that if person M. claims himself not guilty, for westerners it's enough to trust him).

quote: How do You know Maschadow lied, Serb (not to mention that You claimed that He was praising Nord Ost and Beslan)?

I don't f*cking care what he ever said. Nobody in his straight mind would trust a single word of the serial killer, when he claiming "I've never kill anyone".
If you want evidences, go to interpol or something. This mofo was in international search since 2001 as an international terrorist.
Personally for me, the video tape I saw, where he says that "soon we will launch a unique operation and bring warfare into Russia" is more then enough to claim that he is responsible for Nord Ost, because this iterview to one of the Arabic chanels have been shot few days before the Nord Ost. Not to mention the interview of leader of terrorist group shot inside the theater by NTV reportes, wher he said that his group fullfill the order of the president Maskadov. For me it's enough. If you prefer to trust the words of the serial killer, it's your problem. Go vistit your brain surgeon or something.

	13-03-2005 14:13									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Serb With the same success, Soviets had to negotiate with some kind of "German leader" among SS freaks or any other fanatical dicks who still fought against the Red Army in 1946 or even in 1947.

Dare I bring up (again) the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact of 1939 where Germany and Russia allied and divided up Poland?

quote: Originally posted by Serb Look, this sh!t is for westerners. It' old good, well proven game of good and evil cop. Basaev is the evil cop who terrorize and Maskadov is the good one who offers you to addmit your responsibility for the crime you've never done. They are the same. They are the team. They do it together.

An interesting point. It kind of reminds me of Sinn Fein and the Irish Republican Army.