09-03-2005 03:26									#1
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http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/artic...&type=printable

"Sacramento -- A liberal grassroots network that helped fuel Howard Dean's maverick run for president is crackling back to life to fight Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger's ballot initiative drive, another sign that the governor's plans for a special election this year could produce a costly and fiercely partisan battle.

California for Democracy, the state arm of a national group that raised millions of dollars for Dean over the Internet, is planning a high-tech campaign targeting the Republican governor, who wraps up an out-of-state fund- raising tour in Washington today.

The group's re-emergence came as a committee closely aligned with Schwarzenegger began running television advertisements Monday urging voters to seek out signature-gatherers and sign up.

But volunteers from California for Democracy hope to frustrate those efforts. They plan to use the Web and mobile technology to keep roughly 9,000 supporters abreast of the whereabouts of signature-gatherers for Schwarzenegger ballot initiatives. Organizers say volunteers will then head to those locations to distribute the group's leaflets denouncing the planned special election, which opponents note will cost as much as $70 million."

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Yeah lets stop an initative that could let the people vote on particular propositions.... what a moronic group.. I hope they don't stop us voters for getting to vote on intiatives and propositions. I think we have a right to vote on our propositions and the cost is well worth it considering what would be on the ballot.

Opinions?

	09-03-2005 03:49									#2
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quote: California for Democracy, the state arm of a national group that raised millions of dollars for Dean over the Internet, is planning a high-tech campaign targeting the Republican governor, who wraps up an out-of-state fund- raising tour in Washington today.

Here's an opinion. What is Schwarzenegger doing outside California? He's YOUR governor. Are there not enough California Republicans to fund him? You might as well have Bush going to fundraisers in Canada.

	09-03-2005 03:49									#3
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I find the concept of an out-of-state fund raising tour to be odd. Why let people from other states influence a Californian election by boosting Arnold's campaign slushfund?

	09-03-2005 03:52									#4
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Bloody hell, you might even have Nevadans staying overnight in Sacremento!

Sacre bleu!

	09-03-2005 03:52									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Starchild I find the concept of an out-of-state fund raising tour to be odd. Why let people from other states influence a Californian election by boosting Arnold's campaign slushfund?

I agree.

	09-03-2005 04:41									#6
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

So let me get this straight:

The Gubernator using tv ads to urge people to seek out signature-gatherers supporting his initiative = democracy

A protest group showing up at the same place as the signature-gatherers to distribute leaflets opposing the Gubernator's plan = suppressing democracy

So democracy = freedom to speak exclusively in support of the people in power

I think I liked you better when you wore your fascism on your sleeve, Skippy.

	09-03-2005 04:51									#7
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Itīs not his fault, really... Some people just canīt help it

	09-03-2005 06:19									#8
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No I didn't get PWNED. I think we have a right to vote on initatives that get to ballot. This group is trying to crush those attempts at democracy. Our governor is trying to raise awareness in the federal government so we can get more help to put our state back online.

Oh and speaking of this, I just voted in the LA Muncipal elections. I think this is a very sad day in LA's history because the turn out was so bad.

	09-03-2005 06:24									#9
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Trouble is that no-one is questioning the right to "vote on initiatives that get to ballot", they're just acting against the politicking of Arnie. It's a similar action to refuting a politicians claims... or aren't we allowed to do that any more?

	09-03-2005 06:25									#10
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Arnold is a great governor, and you leftists will not hijack this state ever again. We had enough of you under the regime of Gray Davis.

	09-03-2005 06:41									#11
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Voting doesn't inherently equal democracy.

	09-03-2005 06:42									#12
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Voting doesn't inherently equal democracy.

But it is a good part of it.

	09-03-2005 10:11									#13
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quote: No I didn't get PWNED.

Yes you did.

	09-03-2005 11:38									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Yes you did.

oh just because you say so? Sava you are always wrong with the exception of speaker systems.

	09-03-2005 11:49									#15
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I'm a Democrat and the govanator's plan will likely cost my party seats in the state house but it will be good for democracy in this state. Arnie wants to remove the jerrymandering that the politicians do to create "safe districts" in which they will never lose an election. Instead redistricting would be done by a nonpartisan panel of judges who would be legally outlawed from looking at pst voting records or anything other then the total population and trying to make each district as compact geographically as possible.

Naturally, partisans from the Democratic party are upset because this means California will no longer be jerrymandered in their favor but Republicans will still have Texas jerrymandered to the point that competetive elections simply cannot be held there. It sucks but we need to set the example of what a real democracy looks like and not sink to the level of Texas.

	09-03-2005 13:05									#16
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Interesting that the Dems are trying to strangle this baby in its crib. Without doing an in depth analysis it would seem that as the minority party they would have something to gain nationally by this amendment passing and redistricting being turned over to some "non-partisan" body, even if in the short run they may lose a little bit in California.

I hope they fail though. It's a good idea to try and breathe some life into representative democracy here in the U.S., and California is the poster child for what's wrong with our system. Of course getting rid of districts entirely and having everyone run at large is an even better idea.

	09-03-2005 13:13									#17
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At-large elections would be a great idea for California, with its many congressional seats. Third parties would become very viable.

It would get more moderates elected, and it'd also get a couple of extremists into Congress as well.

	09-03-2005 14:26									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley At-large elections would be a great idea for California, with its many congressional seats. Third parties would become very viable. It would get more moderates elected, and it'd also get a couple of extremists into Congress as well.

Yea, for the first time in history a group that actually represents the voters rather than a carefully selected plurality.

	09-03-2005 14:41									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I'm a Democrat and the govanator's plan will likely cost my party seats in the state house but it will be good for democracy in this state. Arnie wants to remove the jerrymandering that the politicians do to create "safe districts" in which they will never lose an election. Instead redistricting would be done by a nonpartisan panel of judges who would be legally outlawed from looking at pst voting records or anything other then the total population and trying to make each district as compact geographically as possible. Naturally, partisans from the Democratic party are upset because this means California will no longer be jerrymandered in their favor but Republicans will still have Texas jerrymandered to the point that competetive elections simply cannot be held there. It sucks but we need to set the example of what a real democracy looks like and not sink to the level of Texas.

word

	09-03-2005 15:45									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo No I didn't get PWNED.

PWNED, PWNED, PWNED

	09-03-2005 16:32									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo But it is a good part of it.

Ahhh, welcome to democratic China, North Korea, Saddam's Iraq and Soviet Era Rumania.


Oh, and the College of Cardinals too, all bastions of democracy, freedom of speech and thought, as certified by The P. P. P. Party, symbol: black helicopters over a South Atlantic expanse (for those illiterate voters).

	09-03-2005 18:30									#22
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I have a better idea. Why not let a computer design the districts? Write a program that would carve the state up into equal populated districts with the minimum average geographical surface area or driving distance.

	09-03-2005 19:37									#23
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He has to rely on out of state money because he screwed California already with his workers comp plan that favors the insurance industry at the expense of California businesses and workers.

	09-03-2005 22:40									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Of course getting rid of districts entirely and having everyone run at large is an even better idea.

	09-03-2005 22:43									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious He has to rely on out of state money because he screwed California already with his workers comp plan that favors the insurance industry at the expense of California businesses and workers.

What a load of crap! He is doing a lot to help this state and we don't need some freaking communist telling us how to run things. His bill favored the free market.

	09-03-2005 22:47									#26
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Californians don't need any fascist Argentines pretending to be Americans, either.

	09-03-2005 22:49									#27
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Californians don't need any fascist Argentines pretending to be Americans, either.

who the **** exactly is that? I'm a voting citizen, fool.

	09-03-2005 22:59									#28
	Suffering from ads?

The governor's plan is a very good idea. Gerrymandering is a huge problem in this country which leads to a problem where public officials don't need to be accountable, as there is virtually no chance they will be kicked out of office. Combine a handpicked district with large amount of pork barrel spending and you have an undefeatable politician who can do whatever he wants.

The problem is worse with state assemblies. With Congress as a whole there are enough swing districts to make the control of congress switchable between parties given time, and the Republican and Democratic gerrymandering balance each other out. But with the state legislature, usually both the House and Senate are gerrymandered, unliked the Federal Senate where gerrymandering is impossible because Senators are determined by States. And because a State gets to determine the legislative districts for itself, it means the entire legislature is picked by one party, unlike the Federal Congress which is a mixture of GOP gerrymandered seats, Dem Gerrymandered Seats, and a few states which don't gerrymander. The result is one party has a lock on control of the State Legislature and it is almost impossible to change party control of the legislature.

It would be good if California provided a role model in ending the system. But the system has a large number of beneficiaries who I suspect will fight to the death to preserve the status quo here. A number of Congressmen who would potentially face getting kicked out of office with the loss of their gerrymandered district will oppose this with all of their political mussel. Not just the Congressmen, but also their staffs who will all lose their jobs if this plan goes through. Add to all of that Democratic Partisans and Interest groups who will fight the possible loss of some house seats.

There will definitely be an all out ad war agains this, but opposition could get even nastier. It wouldn't suprise me if those retired judges wouldn't possibly face very large bribes to get them to present a gerrymandered district plan.

	09-03-2005 23:23									#29
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quote: Of course getting rid of districts entirely and having everyone run at large is an even better idea.

Texas Gerrymandering

Republicans

	10-03-2005 00:33									#30
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo His bill favored the free market.

Duh.