09-03-2005 21:21									#1
	Navy Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Does anyone think the current types of ships are really that different?

I don't see any obvious incentive to create destroyers once I can make battleships and never any incentive to create a cruiser for that matter. I do noticed however that the AI very much likes the destroyer

Only exception is the carrier.

I hope this will be improved in the newest version..

	09-03-2005 22:18									#2
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Yes, this is particularly odd in light that in the real life navy, Battleships don't seem to be of much use.

In Civ III, destroyer has ability to detect invisible. The Battleship does not. (AEGIS Crusiers also have detect invisible flag in Civ III)

Destroyers are indeed faster than Battleships. (Not to mention cheaper)

AEGIS Cruiser should definately have the ability to carry missles and in addition have the interceptor missles that can intercept incoming missles.

	10-03-2005 08:06									#3
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Everyone is displeased with the way the navy is handled in civ3.

1. Submarines are useless.
2. The worst aspects of modern warfare are fully on display in Civ3 naval battles - one unit attacks after another unit, in a rather predictable set of outcomes...no strategy, just numbers.
3. AI not smart -- it won't even move it's units close to bombard -- knocking a bit of the hitpoints off the enemy before engaging in close in action.
4. Takes forever to move a ship from one part of the world to another, but yet a tank can zip around the world as many times as it wants if the a railroad is built along the circumference.
5. Your point about the ships all being about the same is a good one to add to the complaint list

	10-03-2005 08:22									#4
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individual ships shouldn't be sailing around by themselves... navies should be made of task forces


Oh wait, this is civ - of course it's going to have a retarded, clumsy, illogical, and all around stupud combat model...

	10-03-2005 11:05									#5
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Task Forces can only be meaningful is each ship can contribute something to the group, such as having AEIGS Cruiser have the ability to shoot down incoming missles. Otherwise it will be just as boring. In civ3, I will put together a taskforce with nothing but battleship and 1 destroyer. Afterall, all you need is 1 destroyer to spot a sub.

The bigger problem with Navy is they are completely unnesscaary in civ3. I don't build much ship till I am done with my own continent and needs to project power to another continent. In real life, navy is inportant just keep a country safe, or to guard its trade route.

	11-03-2005 00:52									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Dida The bigger problem with Navy is they are completely unnesscaary in civ3. I don't build much ship till I am done with my own continent and needs to project power to another continent. In real life, navy is inportant just keep a country safe, or to guard its trade route.

Same here. The only reason I build ships is to increase my average power rating not for actually using them...

	11-03-2005 01:47									#7
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They make nice artillery for those situations where can't get the land based guns over to a new continent. Expensive guns, but guns none the less.

	11-03-2005 02:16									#8
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In Conquests, Submarines aren't useless against the AI since they can pick a transport to attack instead of the escorting unit.

Yup, ocean units are way too slow in modern era vs land units due to infinate rail.

quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner Everyone is displeased with the way the navy is handled in civ3. 1. Submarines are useless. 4. Takes forever to move a ship from one part of the world to another, but yet a tank can zip around the world as many times as it wants if the a railroad is built along the circumference.

	11-03-2005 05:12									#9
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The ship units should represent fleets rather than individual ships (except for battleships, super-carriers and strategic missile submarines), at least in the post-sail era.

You could have different kinds of fleets such as
* capital fleets
* coastal patrol fleets
* carrier fleets
* escort fleets
* submarine fleets

Some of them can be renewed when entering these eras
* steam-piston engine, optical telegraphy
* steam turbines & simple radio
* diesel engines, radar/sonar
* nuclear power, guided missiles, computerized navigation

	11-03-2005 11:03									#10
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if you are going to implement fleets, why not tasks forces?

	11-03-2005 11:07									#11
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I've had a lot of fun with ships in Civ3, but not quite enough.

I want to see a better naval game in CIV, but how?

	11-03-2005 18:17									#12
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It has been said before, but again...

In Civ 1-2-3, navies are mostly used for invasion, coastal bombardment and protection from these. In real history, the main task of navies was to protect merchant fleets from piracy and enemy blockades. That was implemented to some extent in CtP, because the trade routes were visible on the map.

We should have visible trade routes in Civ 4.

	12-03-2005 16:08									#13
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Optimizer It has been said before, but again... In Civ 1-2-3, navies are mostly used for invasion, coastal bombardment and protection from these. In real history, the main task of navies was to protect merchant fleets from piracy and enemy blockades. That was implemented to some extent in CtP, because the trade routes were visible on the map. We should have visible trade routes in Civ 4.

Indeed visible trade routes that will enable piracy would already give some meaning to your navy. Does anyone know what Civ4 will change (or not change) concerning navies?

	12-03-2005 18:51									#14
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As long as civ uses a square-grid map and indivudal units, there will never be a good "naval game"

	13-03-2005 02:32									#15
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I try to adjust the cost of each item so that they all become useful in one context or another. That seems the most sensible way to handle it. Subs are usually 40% off, which makes it useful for sinking transports. I often make destroyers faster and a bit weaker, which gives them a niche very different from battleships.

	24-03-2005 04:35									#16
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Transport ships should have no atack/defense. And we on really have trade routes, because to the cities connect to each other by harbors they should have Coast/Sea/Ocean routes. But maybe we should have a Trade Ship unit, that makes a trade route, like a road, that gives movement bonus and can be pillaged by enemy ships.

	24-03-2005 07:06									#17
	Re: Navy Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Lambiorix_be Does anyone think the current types of ships are really that different? I don't see any obvious incentive to create destroyers once I can make battleships and never any incentive to create a cruiser for that matter. I do noticed however that the AI very much likes the destroyer Only exception is the carrier. I hope this will be improved in the newest version..

This has probably already been mentioned but the cost difference in modern ships can make it more beneficial to build the cheaper destoryers or cruisers over battleships.

I do agree that the naval portion of Civ2&3 are extremely weak. Incorporating them into the trade/resource system would probably add a lot of new strategy and tactics with navies. Also, a better exploration age (i.e. when caravels, frigates, etc... start to become available) where most of the map hasn't already been discovered by some wandering warrior and/or galley/curragh would helpt out a lot. The whole map/communcation trading process in Civ3 screws things up, IMO, too. One turn after you discover map making you can basically know what the entire world looks like, which I find to be very dull and unrealistic. The dull part is more important to me than the unrealistic portion, as well, btw.

	24-03-2005 13:05									#18
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CtP had a nice System,
with PT Boats being able to see Subs and Destroyers being able to defend the fleet against air attacks.

Maybe you could incorporate a much moire specialized system, with:
1. Frigates being used for defense against Air attacks
2. Aegis Cruisers for Defense against air Attacks and cruise missiles
3. Destroyers being able to see and attack Subs and the player also being able to send the destroyers on mission to protect their trade routes
4. Subs being able to pirate trade routes with the enemy player only having a small chance to detect which nation attacked his trade (maybe 10%). This all changes if enough destroyers are assigned to protect the trade routes. Then the attacked nation has a much higher chance to detect which nation they were attacked from (maybe 40-50%) and there is also a good chance that the attackers will be found ands destroyed.
They would also have a good chance to severely damage or even sink ships in fleets without anti sub capabilities (for example lonely battleships/carriers)
5. Battleships of course functioning as long range Artillery against other ships and installations on land, as usual
6. And of course carriers function as usual as a base for fighters, being able to attack with them and using them for CAP to protect the fleet against incoming fighters.

Maybe you could have a special type of plane being build for use against ships:
"Torpedo planes"
They are useless against land units and also have only slight defense against other fighters, but they can be deadly against ships, especially if the enemy fleet lacks air defense capabilities.

You could have a special kind of Attack for Torp-Planes and subs:
"Torpedo attack"
It could be used against fleets in tiles adjacend to the sub/plane (just like bombard) and would encompass the plane/sub getting as near as possible to the target to make its torpedo strikes as deadly as possible.
If the target has no anti bus/anti plane capabilities, bad luck, as it is very probably dead meat
On the other hand, if the other fleet has anti sub/plane capabilities, success depends on some variables, i.e. the number of attacking subs (if you are able to group them into fleets) and the number of anti sub/plane ships and fighters on CAP.
The higher the number of anti sub/fighter ships and planes on CAP, the lesser the damage attacking subs could cause with their torpedo attacks and the higher the chance that the attacking sub(s)/torpedo plane(s) get killed.
The higher the number of attacking subs/torp planes, the higher the chance for them to kill/damage the target(s)

This way every type of ship would play a certain role. No Frigates within the fleet? Bads luck if you encounter enemy planes
No Destroyers there? Better not encounter an enemy sub

Last edited by Proteus_MST on 24-03-2005 at 13:25

	25-03-2005 02:13									#19
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This is sort of related to naval; it would be nice if the random map editor was able to better create real seas, such as the Mediterranean Sea, the Red Sea, Black Sea, etc... Seas are very crucial landpoints, just ask the US military from the two Iraq wars. In Civ3 very rarely do seas exist. It seems to me that most of the time it follows the normal routine of going 1 ros of coastline followed by 1 or 2 rows of sea and of course the rest is ocean. Having better developed seas for entry points into certain land areas would add to the value of naval units and make the naval portion of the game more interesting.

	29-03-2005 19:30									#20
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@Proteus: Frigates defend against Air units? Even if we're only talking about zeppelins and balloons it's difficult to imagine. Your other ideas are good.

	30-03-2005 20:44									#21
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What is really needed is a better system of ship classification. Destoyers in WW1 were totally different to WW2 and completely different today. Yet they remain the same in CIV.

Although the cruiser to AEGIS crusier path in Civ 2 did represent the chage in ship design better

JATF

	31-03-2005 05:47									#22
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quote: Originally posted by jatf What is really needed is a better system of ship classification. Destoyers in WW1 were totally different to WW2 and completely different today. Yet they remain the same in CIV. Although the cruiser to AEGIS crusier path in Civ 2 did represent the chage in ship design better JATF

Isn't the case for all units in Civ? I personally don't see that as much of a problem.