10-03-2005 11:44									#31
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"

Bankruptcy isn't a tool to take care of something merely unexpected. The fact is that too many people are living paycheck to paycheck when their financial wherewithal is sufficient for them to plan ahead to weather the storms. We all pay extra because these people don't plan ahead."

Bankruptcy is there in case an unexpected event occurs which severly ruins your finanical abilities. A protracted unemployment spell(and average unemployment periods are becoming longer) would do this.

	10-03-2005 11:47									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: Bankruptcy isn't a tool to take care of something merely unexpected. The fact is that too many people are living paycheck to paycheck when their financial wherewithal is sufficient for them to plan ahead to weather the storms. We all pay extra because these people don't plan ahead. DanS want to kill American consumer spending

Well now is the time to do it (or at least after all the other special interests have been served).

	10-03-2005 12:00									#33
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quote: Bankruptcy is there in case an unexpected event occurs which severly ruins your finanical abilities. A protracted unemployment spell(and average unemployment periods are becoming longer) would do this.

Yeh, but it's something that should be used rarely. Unfortunately, bankruptcy is being used routinely nowadays, so the law should be tightened up (after other, more important priorities have been attended to).

The US probably has some of the most generous bankruptcy laws to the debtor in the world. I've always thought this was a good thing overall, but you still need to trim the sails once in a while.

Btw, I also think the corporate bankruptcy laws could use a nip and a tuck.

	10-03-2005 12:06									#34
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This reminds me of that whole, "welfare mothers that have babies to get another welfare check" urban legend argument.

	10-03-2005 12:08									#35
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Do these bills also apply to corporations or just individuals?

	10-03-2005 12:10									#36
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Just individuals. I think they should go after the corporate deadbeats a little more aggressively as well. Pretty much the entire airline industry should be liquidated and handed over to the few airlines with viable business models.

	10-03-2005 12:12									#37
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Also, about the lawyers thing, what is with fining people if the information turnd out to be inaccurate? Are we next going to throw criminal attorneys in jail if it turn out one of their witnesses lied?

	10-03-2005 12:35									#38
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Yeh, but why should society be required to pay for the legal fees of those getting divorced? Fvck that. They can pay their own damn legal fees.

Society isn't paying the creditors took a risk and lost. I have no problem with personal accountability as long as it goes both ways but these insanely profitable companies are trying to behave badly (giving to much credit to questionable people) and want the laws rewritten to remove all risk to themselves. Accountability is a to way street and if they're going to give credit to questionable people then they're going to have to budget for the logical number of defaults.

	10-03-2005 12:39									#39
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Yup

We allow big business to whore people way too much.

	10-03-2005 12:43									#40
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There is another highly unethical thing about this bill which Che pointed out in the other thread. There are several loopholes to this law which allow rich people to hide assets but which aren't really usable to middle income or lower income people including setting up trust funds to shelter assets. It is unethical to make middle class people be reaked over the coals but to let the rich ferret money away. But the poor and the middle class don't give money to the Republican party so they don't get special treatment the way millionaires do.

	10-03-2005 12:44									#41
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quote: Yeh, but why should society be required to pay for the legal fees of those getting divorced? Fvck that. They can pay their own damn legal fees.

Agreed.

	10-03-2005 12:45									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin There is another highly unethical thing about this bill which Che pointed out in the other thread. There are several loopholes to this law which allow rich people to hide assets but which aren't really usable to middle income or lower income people including setting up trust funds to shelter assets. It is unethical to make middle class people be reaked over the coals but to let the rich ferret money away. But the poor and the middle class don't give money to the Republican party so they don't get special treatment the way millionaires do.

That makes me very angry

But I believe it


More examples of sad distribution of wealth principles = morally unethical

	10-03-2005 12:50									#43
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Middle class people can shield assets in their houses, 401(k)s, and IRAs. There's plenty of opportunity for all but the poorest of poor.

	10-03-2005 12:51									#44
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I have no problem with people riching their ass by starting their own business and making money. They risked a lot so their return should be a lot. That should be encouraged but I become enraged at the out right corruption, favoritism, and unethical behavior which politicians (especially the Republican party) keep commiting. Either we are all equal before the law or we are not and allowing certain people special treatment based upon their wealth is not equality before the law.

	10-03-2005 12:52									#45
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According to the Krugman article, most personal bankruptcies are due to medical expenses. It's absolutely disgusting that we're shafting people because they become severely ill.

	10-03-2005 13:16									#46
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Yeh, but it's something that should be used rarely. Unfortunately, bankruptcy is being used routinely nowadays, so the law should be tightened up (after other, more important priorities have been attended to).

You know what? Bankruptcy was something to be used rarely back when credit was hard to get (and you and I remember, Dan S, as few people do here, just how hard it used to be to get credit). But now you've got the credit industry practically giving away lines of credit -- to jobless students, to people with too much debt already, to people who've already gone bankrupt, fer Chrissake. They're taking gigantic, irrational, fundamentally unsound risks and, when those risks come back to bite them on the ass, they go whining to Congress to tighten up the laws. They're the businessmen, not the guy with the new SUV and plasma screen tv in his double-wide who just found out he has cancer. They're the ones with MBA's, CPA's and spreadsheets up the wazoo. They knew exactly what they were getting into when they decided that easy credit was the future, when they decided that mailing credit cards, unsocilited, to people already deep in debt was now part of the business model. So, f*ck 'em. F*ck 'em 'til they chafe.

	10-03-2005 13:23									#47
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Hopefully they'll be f*cked so hard they will suffer an anal prolapse.

	10-03-2005 19:25									#48
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Oh, and

quote: Yeh, but why should society be required to pay for the legal fees of those getting divorced? Fvck that. They can pay their own damn legal fees.

It's more then legal fees. Divorce judges are known for being excessively punitivie towards males, leaving them absolutely destitute. In many cases after judges rulings, men are made destitute and would be unable to their debts.

	10-03-2005 20:33									#49
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If they take the risk away from giving credit, they should be forced to charge less interest.

	10-03-2005 20:36									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Divorce judges are known for being excessively punitivie towards males, leaving them absolutely destitute.

Which is odd, because the number one way for women and children to fall into poverty is divorce.

	10-03-2005 21:07									#51
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quote: You know what? Bankruptcy was something to be used rarely back when credit was hard to get (and you and I remember, Dan S, as few people do here, just how hard it used to be to get credit). But now you've got the credit industry practically giving away lines of credit -- to jobless students, to people with too much debt already, to people who've already gone bankrupt, fer Chrissake. They're taking gigantic, irrational, fundamentally unsound risks and, when those risks come back to bite them on the ass, they go whining to Congress to tighten up the laws. They're the businessmen, not the guy with the new SUV and plasma screen tv in his double-wide who just found out he has cancer. They're the ones with MBA's, CPA's and spreadsheets up the wazoo. They knew exactly what they were getting into when they decided that easy credit was the future, when they decided that mailing credit cards, unsocilited, to people already deep in debt was now part of the business model. So, f*ck 'em. F*ck 'em 'til they chafe.

First, I made medical stuff a special case, so that guy's going to have to lose his job or get divorced for your scenario to work. Second, I think this is a balance of who gets the screwing -- both the creditor and debtor deserve their share. I have no problem with most of your post because of this.

	10-03-2005 22:39									#52
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good thread Shi

	10-03-2005 22:49									#53
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Which is odd, because the number one way for women and children to fall into poverty is divorce.

Not that odd-- both sides in a divorce always take a hit-- Its inevitable when presumably the same income that supported one household now has to pay for two

	10-03-2005 23:02									#54
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Which is odd, because the number one way for women and children to fall into poverty is divorce.

that's because of deadbeet dads

	10-03-2005 23:49									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi It's more then legal fees. Divorce judges are known for being excessively punitivie towards males, leaving them absolutely destitute. In many cases after judges rulings, men are made destitute and would be unable to their debts.

There's a fellow I knew in the Army whose wife left him when we were in Kosovo (she told him to ignore the military orders or she'd leave him; like he could do that without going to jail) and he got a delay until we returned stateside. Once back though the court reamed him royal and between spousal support and child support he had to pay 80% (!!!!) of his income to her. He was only making $36k per year and there is no way a man can survive on the remaining $600 per month.

He had to declare bankruptcy and move back in with his parents. That's how most guys get treated in divorce court and that's one reason why I'm not getting married to my girlfriend any time soon.

	11-03-2005 01:08									#56
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The Republicans have absolutely pwned themselves. When this thing starts f*cking over middle-class families in the swing states the Republicans better get ready for President John Edwards.

	11-03-2005 04:08									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi The lawyer liability could be the most significant fact here. This could really discourage alot of lawyers from practicing in the field, making filling a bankruptcy much harder.

I would not worry about it much. The debtor's attornies around my area are already somewhat the dregs, and supply a very disproportiantely large share of the displinary cases for my Bar region, commonly for fraudulent asset concealing submissions to the bankruptcy court. Thay do seem to have some progress in cleaning it up in the past decade. As for the debtors, I do do not recall having ever seen a personnal banruptcy that did not invovle soom fraud/concealments of assets, but my experience is limit to a dozen or so cases.

	11-03-2005 04:32									#58
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What is the problem DanS?

Why don't the credit card companies simply write in the risk from bankrupticies into their interest rates?

That's what you are supposed to do if you are a responsible lender - make some provision for loans that won't get repaid.

	11-03-2005 04:38									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Odin The Republicans have absolutely pwned themselves. When this thing starts f*cking over middle-class families in the swing states the Republicans better get ready for President John Edwards.

Swing states, nothing; the states with the highest rates of personal bankruptcies are -- you guessed it -- dyed-in-the-wool red states. Remember all those grinning rednecks who posted their pictures on WereNotSorry.com? Looks like its time for WhosSorryNow.com.

	11-03-2005 04:40									#60
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And they do. However, that interest rate is applied to all the credit card company's customers. That means that people who do not go bankrupt are subsidizing the people who do, not the credit card companies.