Apolyton Archive  |  Preserved copy of the Apolyton Civilization Site and its forums as they stood in September 2005. Read-only; nothing here can be posted to or replied to.  |  Forum index |  About this archive |  The 1998–2001 UBB forums
Today on Apolyton WARDELL INTERVIEW PROMO A.C.S. HISTORY CHAPTER 4 GET CIV4 /w FREE PLUS! A.C.S. PHOTO GALLERY GET A.O.M. V1.1
Apolyton Civilization Forums
main| civ2| civ3| civ4| smac| ctp2| ron| moo3| galciv| galciv2| alt| about|
ApolytonPLUS | register | search | faq | new posts | pm (-/-) | upload | members
hall of fame new! | civgroups | civgroups news | interviews | the column | radio | chat | directory | news | store | PLUS
Apolyton Civilization Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.0.3 Apolyton Civilization Forums > Miscellaneous > Off-Topic > Europe's incomes outpaced the rest of the west in 1990-2002
Show a Printable Version | Email This Page to Someone! | Receive updates to this thread | Report this to Apolyton news!
20.Sep: FOURTH CHAPTER IN `HISTORY OF...` PUBLISHED
13.Sep: NEWS ON THE FLY
06.Sep: APOLYTON DONATES TO HURRICANE RELIEF

bottom of page
   - CIVILIZATION 3 $9.99 - CIVILIZATION 2 from $6.95 - CIVILIZATION 2 from $4.25 - ALPHA CENTAURI + ALIEN CROSSFIRE (laptop collection) from $19.99 - ALPHA CENTAURI PC $9.99 -->
Author
Thread   
Pages (4): [ 1   2   3   4   ]
< Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
el freako is offline el freako
Prince
Bristol, European Union
Oct 1999
time: 05:25
  Old Post 10-03-2005 16:35
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#1 Report this post to a moderator
Europe's incomes outpaced the rest of the west in 1990-2002 Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I have recently done a study on relative incomes for most of the OECD with the primary emphasis being on studying income (as opposed to production which is used in GDP) and making the data as comparable as possible.

I chose the datum years of 1990 and 2002 as these are the earliest and latest set of EKS PPPs that I have for the region (prior to 1990 the OECD used GK PPPs which gave different results).

To correct for the effects of the differing economic cycle I adjusted the GDP using the OECD's estimates for the output gap.

And to convert from production to income I then added net property income from abroad (the main component of this is remitted profits and wages).

Here are the results, which were revealing:

Trend-adjusted Gross National Income relative to EU15 average, 2002 (1990)
Canada: +8% (+17%)
United States: +38% (+54%)

Australia: +4% (+8%)
Japan: +8% (+14%)
New Zealand: -22% (-12%)

Austria: +10% (+8%)
Belgium: +9% (+9%)
Denmark: +11% (+10%)
Finland: +4% (+2%)
France: +7% (+14%)
Germany: -1% (+3%)
Greece: -30% (-37%)
Ireland: -2% (-32%)
Italy: -2% (+3%)
Netherlands: +10% (+6%)
Norway: +37% (+19%)
Portugal: -30% (-39%)
Spain: -16% (-25%)
Sweden: +5% (+11%)
Switzerland: +27% (+41%)
United Kingdom: +10% (+3%)

So, for example, Canada shows as +8% (+17%) that means that it had an income 8% above the EU15 average in 2002 but it was 17% higher in 1990 - meaning that it grew slower than the EU15 average, whilst Spain was -16% (-25%) meaning that it was 16% below the EU15 average in 2002 and was 25% below it in 1990 - meaning that it grew faster than the EU15 average.

As you can see many poorer members of the EU15 caught up significantly with the average, whilst every non-european state saw a fall relative to that average.
What was even more surprising is that the US's total income fell from 5.6% above the EU15 level in 1990 to 5.0% above in 2002, indeed only Australia saw a rise in it's relative total income compared to the EU15, a rise which was more than countered by faster population growth.


edit: added explaination of figures at VJ's suggestion

Last edited by el freako on 10-03-2005 at 18:05

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:25
  Old Post 10-03-2005 16:38 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#2 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

el freako is offline el freako
Prince
Bristol, European Union
Oct 1999
time: 05:25
  Old Post 10-03-2005 16:39
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#3 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Sorry, is the data confusing?

How can I make it more user-friendly?

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:25
  Old Post 10-03-2005 16:41 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#4 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I have no idea what the numbers mean. Or the acronyms.

Plus, I look at this United States: +38% (+54%) and at a glance, I'd think it means that the USA is doing quite well against Europe.

Eli is offline Eli
Emperor
Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:25
  Old Post 10-03-2005 16:44
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#5 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

edit: never mind, I confused the order of the numbers.

Flandrien is offline Flandrien
King
Belgium
May 2000
time: 06:25
  Old Post 10-03-2005 16:45
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#6 Report this post to a moderator
Re: Europe's incomes outpaced the rest of the west in 1990-2002 Increase the size of your Attachments

quote:
Originally posted by el freako
Belgium: +9% (+9%)


Luckily my income did much better

Last Conformist is offline Last Conformist
King
of Calakmul
Jul 2003
time: 06:25
  Old Post 10-03-2005 16:48
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#7 Report this post to a moderator
Increase the size of your Attachments

quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
I have no idea what the numbers mean. Or the acronyms.

Plus, I look at this United States: +38% (+54%) and at a glance, I'd think it means that the USA is doing quite well against Europe.

Near as I can tell, it means your advantage is eroding pretty quickly.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
King
Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:25
  Old Post 10-03-2005 16:53 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#8 Report this post to a moderator
Suffering from ads?

Well considering the EU economy has completely stagnated I wouldn't count on that.

el freako is offline el freako
Prince
Bristol, European Union
Oct 1999
time: 05:25
  Old Post 10-03-2005 16:53
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#9 Report this post to a moderator
Get a bigger avatar today!

Sorry, I guess I made it too esoteric.

First off to explain the acronyms:

OECD = Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, a site containing much economic data used internationally link
GDP = Gross Domestic Product, a measure of how much an economy produces in a year, the common means for making comparisons between economies.
PPPs = Purchasing Power Parities, a method of making price comparisons between economies that is more accurate than just using exchange rates.
GK, EKS = two methods of calculating PPPs, Geary-Khamis and the one currently used by the OECD (I forget which economists the acronym is named after)
EU15 = The 15 member states of the European Union (i.e. the membership before the 10 accession states joined last year)
Output Gap = the difference between actual output and trend output (a method of correcting for different stages in the economic cycle)


And secondly the data:

The Canadian figure of +8% (+17%) means that in 2002 the average Canadian had an income 8% higher than the EU15's average, whilst in 1990 it was 17% above (on this measure, which remember corrects for the effects of the economic cycle).



quote:
Originally posted by Giancarlo
Well considering the EU economy has completely stagnated I wouldn't count on that.


The above figures prove otherwise, don't let your beliefs get in the way of discerning the truth Giancarlo.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
King
Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:25
  Old Post 10-03-2005 16:58 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#10 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote:
The above figures prove otherwise, don't let your beliefs get in the way of discerning the truth Giancarlo.


Here we go with the idiocy again.. I have had enough of this... you just can't accept the ****ing facts can you? Is there something in your head that prevents you from doing so? Accept the facts. Europe is in trouble as a whole. And as far as I'm concerned, once the French and Germany economy continue to take nosedives these problems will grow.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=sto...th_050222080011

Starchild is offline Starchild
Emperor
a raving alcoholic drama queen with a penchant for the biosciences
Jan 1970
time: 00:25
  Old Post 10-03-2005 17:02
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#11 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Let's see. el freako, a professional economist providing facts, data, and links from important global institutions, vs Giancarlo, who gave us a link from yahoo news.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
King
Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:25
  Old Post 10-03-2005 17:03 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#12 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote:
Originally posted by Starchild
Let's see. el freako, a professional economist providing facts, data, and links from important global institutions, vs Giancarlo, who gave us a link from yahoo news.


the guy isn't a professional on this forum. From every time I have seen him, he has appeared as the most dimwitted and foolish.. even if I show German government figures that their economy is tanking.

Saras is offline Saras
King
Vilnius, Lithuania
Apr 1999
time: 06:25
  Old Post 10-03-2005 17:05
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#13 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Are you a masochist, fezbot? You seem to love getting pwned, and when you can't get enough, you self-pwn...

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
King
Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:25
  Old Post 10-03-2005 17:06 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#14 Report this post to a moderator
Get a bigger avatar today!

quote:
Originally posted by Saras
Are you a masochist, fezbot? You seem to love getting pwned, and when you can't get enough, you self-pwn...


how about you do what dick cheney said, and go **** yourself?

el freako is offline el freako
Prince
Bristol, European Union
Oct 1999
time: 05:25
  Old Post 10-03-2005 17:07
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#15 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote:
Originally posted by Giancarlo

Here we go with the idiocy again.. I have had enough of this... you just can't accept the ****ing facts can you? Is there something in your head that prevents you from doing so? Accept the facts.


I can provide you with the sources and methods so you can calculate the above figures yourself (a proper scientist always trys to go back to the raw data rather than relying, as seem to, on stuff compiled for you)

If you can find any errors or a different interpretation then I am quite willing to admit that what I believe is wrong.

GDP (the 1990 data is converted using GK-PPP's you will have to change these into EKS PPPs, I can't find the original .pdf file I used for this on the 'net as I renamed it but I have attached it to this post. Also note that EKS PPPs are not available for Luxembourg and East Germany in 1990, I have used GK PPPs in those cases (even though it probably overstates their income).
Population you will have to add East Germany's Population to the West German figure, According the the GDDC website it was 16.111m in 1990.
Net Foreign Income you will have to calculate this as a percentage of GDP
Output Gaps you will find these on the final tab of the worksheet


quote:
Originally posted by Starchild
et's see. el freako, a professional economist providing facts, data, and links from important global institutions, vs Giancarlo, who gave us a link from yahoo news.


Actually i'm not a professional economist (although i'm flattered you got that impression) I am a programmer by profession.
However economics (and international comparisons in particular) has been my passion and hobby for over twenty years.

edit: corrected text around link added link to provide Net property income from abroad, Output Gaps and also advised over situation regarding Luxembourgois and East German data.

Attachment: eks ppp's for 1990.pdf
This has been downloaded 0 time(s).

Last edited by el freako on 10-03-2005 at 17:44

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
King
Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:25
  Old Post 10-03-2005 17:08 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#16 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'm stating where the EU economy is headed down now. Unlike you, I'm not using out-of-date statistics.. the EU is in big trouble and you know it.

Saras is offline Saras
King
Vilnius, Lithuania
Apr 1999
time: 06:25
  Old Post 10-03-2005 17:09
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#17 Report this post to a moderator
Increase the size of your Attachments

quote:
Originally posted by Giancarlo


how about you do what dick cheney said, and go **** yourself?


look at him squirm

C0ckney is offline C0ckney
Prince
Big Up The Macedonian Massive
Apr 2000
time: 05:25
  Old Post 10-03-2005 17:09
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#18 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

this thread is a fine example of fezzing

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
King
Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:25
  Old Post 10-03-2005 17:09 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#19 Report this post to a moderator
Increase Your PM Length

quote:
Originally posted by Saras


look at him squirm


Maybe you should think before you speak, because you can look highly retarded when you say stupid things. People can't PWN me, that's against the laws of nature.

Saras is offline Saras
King
Vilnius, Lithuania
Apr 1999
time: 06:25
  Old Post 10-03-2005 17:11
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#20 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote:
Originally posted by Giancarlo

People can't PWN me, that's against the laws of nature.


sometimes I think Fez is really Markos trying to amuse members of this site. Thank you, Markos great marketing

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
King
Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:25
  Old Post 10-03-2005 17:12 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#21 Report this post to a moderator
Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

oh shut up, saras.. do you have some brain malfunction?

Combat Ingrid is offline Combat Ingrid
Chieftain
Satan's Majestic Empire
Nov 2001
time: 06:25
  Old Post 10-03-2005 17:12
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#22 Report this post to a moderator
Suffering from ads?

Something I saved in my notepad, it's from an earlier economics debate (can you say Deja Vu?)

"I guess you think I am an idiot." - Fez
"It's hard to ignore the evidence you keep providing to support this hypothesis." - el freako

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
King
Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:25
  Old Post 10-03-2005 17:14 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#23 Report this post to a moderator
Put an end to popups!

No I intentionally trashed this thread because I'm sick of the disinformation coming from el ****o. And he's funny.. he conveniently stops at 2002.. and says nothing about the years after that.

Saras is offline Saras
King
Vilnius, Lithuania
Apr 1999
time: 06:25
  Old Post 10-03-2005 17:16
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#24 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote:
Originally posted by Giancarlo
oh shut up, saras.. do you have some brain malfunction?


Well at least I have a brain

el freako is offline el freako
Prince
Bristol, European Union
Oct 1999
time: 05:25
  Old Post 10-03-2005 17:16
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#25 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote:
Originally posted by Giancarlo
I'm stating where the EU economy is headed down now. Unlike you, I'm not using out-of-date statistics.. the EU is in big trouble and you know it.


quote:
Originally posted by Giancarlo
he conveniently stops at 2002.. and says nothing about the years after that.


The 2002 PPPs are, as I stated, the most up-to-date figures available, we will have to wait for the 2005 PPPs to be released in late 2007/early 2008 for us to know for sure won't we?

But remember that the reported growth rates for the EU15 were 1% a year slower than those reported for the US during 1990-2002, whereas this data shows that their incomes rose at the same rate.

Obviously something is screwy, as the US has changed the way it calculates inflation (and thus reported growth) whereas most other nations have not I think that the reported growth figures are more suspect that the PPP ones (it is also interesting to note that the difference is smallest with those two nations, France and Australia, that hace also changed towards the US system).

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
King
Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:25
  Old Post 10-03-2005 17:16 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#26 Report this post to a moderator
Put an end to popups!

quote:
Originally posted by Saras


Well at least I have a brain


I have a brain but no brain malfunction like you, dipshit.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
King
Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:25
  Old Post 10-03-2005 17:17 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#27 Report this post to a moderator
Got spare money?

quote:
Originally posted by el freako


Obviously something is screwy, as the US has changed the way it calculates inflation (and thus reported growth) whereas most other nations have not I think that the reported growth figures are more suspect that the PPP ones (it is also interesting to note that the difference is smallest with those two nations, France and Australia, that hace also changed towards the US system).


BAM! France is ****ed up and so is Germany. Their economies are in the gutter. Just accept that.

el freako is offline el freako
Prince
Bristol, European Union
Oct 1999
time: 05:25
  Old Post 10-03-2005 17:20
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#28 Report this post to a moderator
Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote:
Originally posted by Giancarlo

BAM! France is ****ed up and so is Germany. Their economies are in the gutter. Just accept that.


I have posted facts proving otherwise (although France and Germany certainly have not performed as well as the EU15)

Why should I ignore the facts just based on your opinon?

If you have any data that proves your point feel free to do so and I will comment on that.

Starchild is offline Starchild
Emperor
a raving alcoholic drama queen with a penchant for the biosciences
Jan 1970
time: 00:25
  Old Post 10-03-2005 17:20
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#29 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Must be hard having Europe envy as bad as Fez does.

Saras is offline Saras
King
Vilnius, Lithuania
Apr 1999
time: 06:25
  Old Post 10-03-2005 17:21
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#30 Report this post to a moderator
Inflate your Upload Space

quote:
Originally posted by Giancarlo


I have a brain but no brain malfunction like you, dipshit.


Why don't you get a clue?

 
Pages (4): [ 1   2   3   4   ]
< Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:25.
Apolyton Time is 00:25.
    top of page
Rate This Thread:
Forum Jump:
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
 




Contact Us - Apolyton Civilization Site - Support Us!

Building a better Apolyton through better information. Click here and take our poll!
Non-US visitors, click here!

Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.0.3
Copyright ©2000, 2001, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.

Page generated in 0.0656 seconds (92.76% PHP - 7.24% MySQL) with 30 queries
Page Loading Time:

Support Apolyton: Amazon USA | Amazon UK | Amazon DE | Amazon FR |
Support Apolyton and get FREE PLUS, Buy from Chips&Bits: Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition | Call to Power 2 | Civilization: The Boardgame | GURPS/ Alpha Centauri | Alpha Centauri | Civilization IV | Civilization III: Complete |


Front Page | Civilization IV | Civilization III | Civilization II | Call to Power II | Alpha Centauri | Master of Orion III
Rise of Nations | Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations II | Misc
Alt.Civs | Civ I | C:CtP I | About | News | Directory | Apolyton Store | Forums | Chat | Columns | Interviews | Newsletter
Scenario League | CSC | Clash of Civs | Spanish Site | CtP Maps | Cradle of Civ | WesW's Ctp1/2 Site | Civ3 Haven

apolyton.net | apolyton.com | civilization2.net | civilization3.net | civilization4.net | civilizationiv.info | calltopower.net | galciv.net | galciv2.net | moo3.net