11-03-2005 10:16									#1
	MGL and Armies Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The use of the MGL has me pretty confused. I get a GL and create an army, but can't seem to do anything with it. I think I must be missing something thats obvious to the rest of the world. The manual says that I can load units into the army while its in a city, but the way to do that eludes me. I'm sure its going to turn out to be some button that I miss seeing, and I'm prepared to be embarassed - so lay it on me.

I'm also a little confused about the army hit strength. The manual is pretty straightforward about the combined hit strength, but the Macedonians off-loaded an army from a galley and graphically I saw one war elephant plus the "army" graphic. The elephant had a hit rating of 13, but a single Elite Legionary 2 fortified in a city took out the army and only got a hangnail from the battle. What kind of army is that?

This also raises a question about loading armies into galleys. Can and entire army with more than four units be loaded into a galley?

	11-03-2005 12:16									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

first you have to form an army with your great leader (just hover the mouse over the action buttons on the bottom- the popup text will show when you can form an army).

Then activate the units you want to form into that army. Move those units to the same square the army is in. And then hit the Load button. the button looks similar to the same as loading onto a transport.

	11-03-2005 12:18									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Well if this is C3C armies should be very strong, if it is PTW or CivIII they are weaker. If this is a mod, who can say what they have set it for.

Once you have an empty army formed, you must move units to the army or the army to the units. Once they are together, the unis need to have movement points let and if so the "load" button should appear when you select the unit.

This presumes that the units can be loaded, such as a horse for instance. You can mix uni types, if you want, but I would at least keep them the same speed.

13 hp army with an elephant could be 5 for one phant or iirc even 6 if elite. Then if it was 2 phant with 5 hp's and one 3 hp unit ro any combination.

I can hardly imagine any 13 hp army not killing a lone Legion, but if it was foryed in a size 7 or 6 with a wall and the city was on a hill and the army attacked over a river, and it was a real bad rng for the army, who knows.

I would expect it was not an army with MA bonus, if it was C3C, that would be very ugly to lose then.

	11-03-2005 12:19									#4
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Oh, did the city have any bombardment units to get in a free shot?

	11-03-2005 20:49									#5
	Put an end to popups!

You can right-click an enemy Army to see what units it is composed with.

Re loading into ships, the Army itself counts as one unit, so a Galley can only take on an Army with one unit inside, a Caravel can take an Army of two units, a Galleon can take an Army with three, and Trannies can handle anything.

	12-03-2005 06:57									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: [SIZE=1] and Trannies can handle anything.

... that's so begging for an inappropriate response...

If there are Legionary 2s floating around it sounds like he's playing Rise of Rome (or maybe Fall of Rome also, I never played through that one) so I'd imagine the armies are stock C3C strength.

What are the carrying capacities of galleys in these scenarios? A fully loaded army on a galley seems out of whack.

As for the legion beating it, you either got real lucky or had some nice combat bonuses in your favor.

	12-03-2005 07:23									#7
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Sounds right. Galleys have a transport capacity of 4 in Rise of Rome. War Elephants still get the HP bonus, so two regulars and a vet, if it's homogenous, would get you to 13.

Neal, my question is were you playing single or multi-player. And if you were playing single-player, why does the AI have a fully filled army? Is it something about the scenario?

	12-03-2005 09:15									#8
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Wow! Great responses and I thank you all. Apparently I didn't post complete game info. So I'll do that and answer all the questions - and perhaps have one or two new questions.

But first, I now am clear on what an "army" is. The army is a game construct which is the GML converted to an Army. This army is a single unit (0/0/1) and the attached units (which I thought of as being the army) are separate from the army but are inseparable from it. This sounds like double talk but I think I have it right.

I'm playing C3C, Warlord, "Rise of Rome"; I'm Rome, no mods, city wall, and no bombard units. The city in question is on an island off the toe of the Roman Empire (Sicily?) with two Mace cities, Marsala and Syracuse, and the Rome city of Messana. The attack path does not cross a river and the city is on a plain.

quote: Then activate the units you want to form into that army. Move those units to the same square the army is in.

The manual states "A leader in a city can build an army there." Two responses refer to moving the activated units to the same square as the army (converted GML) is in. Can the army be created in a city without moving to and outside square?

quote: I can hardly imagine any 13 hp army not killing a lone Legion, but if it was forayed in a size 7 or 6 with a wall and the city was on a hill and the army attacked over a river, and it was a real bad rng for the army, who knows.

The Elite was a 6 and actually lost one hit point. The victory sure raised my eyebrows - all three of them. I didn't think to click on the enemy units, but I counted the hit points and came up with 13.

quote: Neal, my question is were you playing single or multi-player. And if you were playing single-player, why does the AI have a fully filled army? Is it something about the scenario?

Playing single. What is a "fully filled" army? That implies limits to the number of units in an army, but the manual doesn’t say that there is a limit.

I think that I've covered everything. Again, thanks for the help.

	12-03-2005 10:15									#9
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Neal the Neophyte But first, I now am clear on what an "army" is. The army is a game construct which is the GML converted to an Army. This army is a single unit (0/0/1) and the attached units (which I thought of as being the army) are separate from the army but are inseparable from it. This sounds like double talk but I think I have it right. I'm playing C3C, Warlord, "Rise of Rome"; I'm Rome, no mods, city wall, and no bombard units. The city in question is on an island off the toe of the Roman Empire (Sicily?) with two Mace cities, Marsala and Syracuse, and the Rome city of Messana. The attack path does not cross a river and the city is on a plain. The manual states "A leader in a city can build an army there." Two responses refer to moving the activated units to the same square as the army (converted GML) is in. Can the army be created in a city without moving to and outside square? The Elite was a 6 and actually lost one hit point. The victory sure raised my eyebrows - all three of them. I didn't think to click on the enemy units, but I counted the hit points and came up with 13. Playing single. What is a "fully filled" army? That implies limits to the number of units in an army, but the manual doesn’t say that there is a limit. I think that I've covered everything. Again, thanks for the help.

Right, Armies are created by "loading" normal units into a special army unit that is normally converted from a Great Leader. The units to be loaded must be in the city with your converted Great Leader. You can also build armies in the city that builds the Military Academy, but don't worry about that for now.

The default capacity for an army is 3 units, but that is increased to 4 with The Pentagon later in the game (or it can be affected by mods/scenarios - though I think the official Conquests all leave army size to the default). Once a unit is part of an army it can not be removed.

Armies are hugely valuable because they get an attack bonus, an extra movement point, and the units inside are virtually indestructible unless poorly used (or the RNG goes off the probability charts). They can really turn the tide of the game when well used.

	12-03-2005 11:33									#10
	Suffering from ads?

Well you can load units into an army any where, so long as the army is not full and the unit has movement points left.

You must create the army in a city, but the army can move empty or load a unit and move up to the new movement limit.

Since an empty army only moves one, it would normally make sense to bring the unit to the army and load. Once loaded the army will have the movement of the slowest unit and the extra movement for the army, if applicable.

	12-03-2005 18:50									#11
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I have never, ever seen AI using an army...

	12-03-2005 22:55									#12
	Tired of ads?

It is rare, but I have seen it.

	13-03-2005 00:07									#13
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Under stock rules, AI doesn't seem to ever build an army with a MGL, intstead rushing a SW / improvement with it.

If given an army [RoR], the AI will place exactly one unit in it.

This led to a heavy modifiction of armies in the AU mod, perhaps the largest difference in flavor:

1. Armies capacity downsized to 1.

2. Armies given 4 extra hitpoints.

3. Military Academy no longer requires Victrious Army. No longer allows construction of armies but does spawn an army every 25 turns. No longer imcreases combat bonsus of armies.

4. Pentagon no longer allows an additional unit to join an army. Instead it increases the combat bonsus of armies.

	13-03-2005 00:17									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

that's what I like most about that mod, though I would increase the hitpoints a little more.

	13-03-2005 00:23									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

jon left out that there are AI Armies all over the place in the AU Mod.

	13-03-2005 01:31									#16
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Theseus jon left out that there are AI Armies all over the place in the AU Mod.

And that some of them are actually doing damage.

	13-03-2005 03:31									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Theseus jon left out that there are AI Armies all over the place in the AU Mod.

Well established, T, well established.

I'm familiar with what the AI mod did to armies, but unless I'm missing something, it sounds like Neal saw a 3xWE army fielded by an AI. That's what I'm trying to reconcile.

	13-03-2005 23:43									#18
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Maybe Neal is playing Vanilla?

	14-03-2005 01:59									#19
	Get a bigger avatar today!

That's about all I could think of, but he said above that he's playing C3C, the RoR conquest. I'm stumped.

	14-03-2005 06:17									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I've not really played the Conquests much since C3C came out (aren't they all somewhat broken)... but I seem to remember in the discussions of how to fix the AI Army problem, someone pointing out RoR as being somewhat better.

	14-03-2005 08:57									#21
	Playing Vanilla Full PM-box? Change here!

Yes, I believe that I'm playing vanilla, if vanilla means no mods. I'm playing Conquest from the out-of-the-can Complete issue. I believe that it contains all the necessary patches. On the other hand, if it contains all the patches, maybe it's not vanilla...

By the way, all the help I got payed off. I formed an army on Caesar Agustas and sent it against Marsala, which had converted to the Cath's because of culture envy. The attached units were 3 Ligionary 2's at 6 hit points for a total of 18. The army got wiped out attacking the town when the hit points turned yellow and I foolishly sent it against the town again and hit points turned red. The Caths sent a WE against the army at that point and wiped it out. Very instructive. I've got to remember to do some saves before I experiment like that so that I can try alternate strategies. So much to learn and so little time...

Last edited by Neal the Neophyte on 14-03-2005 at 09:30

	14-03-2005 10:18									#22
	Suffering from ads?

Broken or not, I've just started getting into them, and they're fun, T.

Neal, vanilla refers to the original game, as opposed to either of the expansion packs (PTW and C3C).

	14-03-2005 20:28									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Version 1.00 has more broken features than 1.22.

The only thing I'm aware of them breaking between 1.00 and 1.22 was SGL when making a mod with non-default victory conditions. It may even be fixable if you hack into the mod with a hex editor. (Assuming you know where the on/off switch for SGL is supposed to be)

I did note an interesting feature when you start a conquest and then start a normal game. In the normal game, the victory modes default to whatever it was in the conquests. And it seemed to have built a Monolith on the starting tile when I didn't notice that. It is fixable, just click "default victory conditions"

	16-03-2005 14:30									#24
	Remove this text

Victory conditions from the last game seem to be used as standard setting for the next game. Easily changed, but annoying if you forget.

	28-03-2005 00:05									#25
	Re: Playing Vanilla Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Neal the Neophyte Yes, I believe that I'm playing vanilla, if vanilla means no mods. I'm playing Conquest from the out-of-the-can Complete issue. I believe that it contains all the necessary patches. On the other hand, if it contains all the patches, maybe it's not vanilla...

Vanilla generally means the original Civ 3 game, with no expansions added.

	04-04-2005 21:21									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Solomwi That's about all I could think of, but he said above that he's playing C3C, the RoR conquest. I'm stumped.

I saw a Carthaginian army in the ROR scenario a couple of days ago. 2 War Elephants and a Numidian. It died a sad and sorry death trying to take out a Legion 3 behind Hadrians wall.

	04-04-2005 23:20									#27
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I've seen the AI in RoR and the WWII conquest fill oult the armies they start with. However, they usually fill it with a something like 2 WEs and a Swordsman, which is an easy target for a Legionary III.

Sort of off topic, but the AI (Macedon and Persia in my game) used every leader they popped for rushing wonders.

	05-04-2005 00:14									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I saw it myself, just today, and it finally made sense. The problem, IIRC, was that the AI is programmed never to load a unit into an army with more movement than it has, and never move an army that isn't filled. By putting that original sword or NM in the army, its movement rate is fixed at 2. Since WE also have 2 MP, loading them into the army is just fine, leading to a loaded army that can be utilized.

For the record, the army the AI dropped off on Sicily today was a sword and two WE's.

	05-04-2005 01:39									#29
	Inflate your Upload Space

Originally posted by vmxa1

It is rare, but I have seen it.

I am a relative newbie (playing my 2nd game on
vanilla, as the Persians at Chieftan), but I saw an AI
army in my current game. The Chinese marched
an army of Riders into my territory to take a size 6 city
that was building its Aqueduct. I had a Musketman
defending, but didn't think to cash-rush another
or move one in from a neighboring city until it was too
late. Dang, they're fast!

I had just completed a couple of great wonders,
and the Greeks has just beaten both of us (Chinese
and Persians) to Sun Tzu's, so perhaps the AI had
no great wonder to rush?

(BTW, I'm playing chieftan to try to un-learn my Civ 2
habits)

	05-04-2005 03:41									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

It has been three years or so since Civ3 came out, so I cannot even remember my civ2 moves.

Riders have 3 moves, so they will get there quickly, thats a fact. I have no idea why they would make an army, but they do so on occassion. I am glad I have not had them send any Rider armies at me, though.

If you were at war with China, you should beef up any border towns that face their direction. Sometimes it is wise to have a trip wire out in the no mans land, so you can see enemies coming.

One thing I do remember from Civ2 that does not apply to III and that is a top unit can defend against the world with a wall. This means having some fast movers in a position to beef up defenses in a pinch.

Even inferior units can take down a city by sheer force of numbers, unlike II. In II you win vs their top unit and all die, home free.

15 swords attack that city with a musket, you got a big problem in III. This is why it is often wise to have cities no more than three tiles away and roads down. You can then get some help to that city before it is attacked.