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Wernazuma III
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Decolonize!
Aug 2000
time: 06:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Sava
There are two kinds of Croats. Good people that acknowledge and denounce the atrocities, and those like VetLegion who deny and ignore the truth about history and what really happened.
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I'm really confident that you know THE TRUTH about history and we're all glad you share it with us.
And I've not seen VetLegion deny the existance of Croat atrocities during the war in this thread, nor somewhere else, please point me to such a part.
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The Croats today aren't much different from WW2. They even tried to use the Ustache flag for the Croatia flag.  That's like using the Swastika for Germany. |
It is bad propaganda to label Croats as a whole as you do here. The extreme right is a severe problem in Croatia, but these groups are not in power in Croatia. Replacing the Croatian flag with the Ustacha flag is completely out of question, no important political movement is advocating that. And Croatia is not the only country in Europe, there's quite a few in the EU already with worrying and strong extremist groups (France, Belgium, Germany, Poland e.g.). The Croatian government is working towards the EU and not even starting talks is playing in the hands of those nationalist right forces who always said: "Look, they hate us." Talk about diplomacy...  The same people who
quote:
my grandfather, however, talks quite a bit about things there... we took a trip to Yugoslavia (I will always call it that) in 1999. That was a big part of my life. It was on that trip I realized how wrong and biased the Western media is. The bombing was one of the biggest injustices America has committed. I saw firsthand the results of the Albanian terrorists and their policies. |
Oh, those biased western media, compared to the unbiased knowledge of THE TRUTH ABOUT HISTORY on the Serb side. It was all self defense. Talk about denial...
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kronic
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Germany
Mar 2002
time: 06:36
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Sure, did I attack the legitmacy of your stance towards Croatian membership?
I was rather upset about the claim that Germany faces the problem of a strong extremist group (on a Le Pen or Haider like level). That's simply wrong.
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VetLegion
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
BTW, I heard on TV this general was considered as a war hero in Croatia. Is it true? |
Pretty much so.
The whole problem with him is this. During the Operation Storm which happened in 1995, and in which Croatia retook the occupied third of its territory in a matter of days, most of the Serbs left.
However, a couple thousand stayed, mostly old people who wouldn't leave their homes. Of these, a couple hundred were murdered, presumably for retribution. This happened in the general chaos, but well after the actual fighting. The Croatian police failed to catch the killers and Croatian courts failed to punish them.
Now, court in Hague is looking for someone to blame for that. General Gotovina has been in charge of military operations and civilian affairs for a period in 1995 until proper civilian institutions were established in the regained territories.
Hague is charging him on the bases of command responsability. This means that he can be found guilty even if he didn't commit or order any crimes, but did fail to do everything possible to prevent them, and/or find the purpetrators.
This is of course completely logical. Many Croats, however, see it as unfair on couple of accounts. I'll elaborate.
Firstly, chain of command is not as seriousely taken here as in north Europe whose legal system the court is using. Many think that it is enough that the commander didn't order crimes, and that not literally everything that happens under him is his responsability.
Secondly, victorious armies never go on trial. Take any war you want, the winner is never persecuted, although, due to the nature of the war, we can be pretty sure all sides commit crimes. My Lai and Abu Gharib prison in Iraq, the guy that shot the wounded Iraqi on TV... we only find out about a small percent of this stuff.
And even when things do get found out, the issue is covered up as best as possible, sentences are low and the big fish almost never get hurt.
This is bothering Croatians, since we have indeed won the war here. Also, there is general agreement that we were the good guys too. There is a strong feeling of righteousness. I fact Croatia pushed for the establishment of the Hague court precisely because of the thought that we were the victim. Nobody expected it would bring Croats to trial too.
But when it did, Croatia followed its commitment to the court (it has precedence over national courts) and extradicted not only all of the suspects, but also tons of documents from the war period which would be classified for fifty years in any non-banana country.
What is left, is the Gotovina issue. Croatia did not extradict him to Hague because he is in hiding. The government has issued a warrant, his friends and relatives are being observed and so on. This is a difficult issue for the government, because the main party is reformed nationalists (HDZ) and it got to power in part thanks to the rising anti Hague sentiment in the country.
However, I don't doubt the government would extradict the general to the Hague if it got hold of him. But I doubt it will happen. Hague court has a limited life, I think till 2008. He could wait it out if he is stubborn enough. He has contacts and money, he could be anywhere from Paraguay, France to Croatia.
Regarding the posponement of talks with Croatia. This won't impact either the EU or Croatia much. Croatia is already "owned" by EU companies and multinationals, you think they would let anything bad happen to their investments? Nah  . This is only a slight bump on Croatian EU path.
What is irritating many Croats is the treatment we get by EU. Croatia has fulfilled economic criteria, legal criteria and all other criteria for starting the talks, in fact, many economic indicators are better in Croatia than in some new EU members. And EU is now holding us hostage over one guy. This will strengthen euroscepticism here very very much. Belonging to Europe has been a Croatian dream for a long, long time, however, if this situation is prolonged indefinately, and economy continues to improve, it is possible that people would vote NO on referendum about joining the union. This would be a big change though, and won't happen soon. Croats are overwhelmingly proeuropean.
Sorry for the long post, but I had to elaborate.
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VetLegion
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Sava, regarding the Croatian WW II history. As I said, you have been brainwashed by Serb propaganda, or else you wouldn't type such nonsense as you do.
During WW II Croatia was an occupied country with a quisling regime. Like much of the rest of Europe. These can be well described as the worst scum that ever walked this land. However, you have to know that there was also a strong Croatian partisan movement here. World War II here was in many ways a civil war, village against village and in some cases brother against brother. A messy affair.
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Wernazuma III
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Decolonize!
Aug 2000
time: 06:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Sava
I did no such thing
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quote:
you aren't worth responding to |
quote:
I remember we had a spat a long time ago about Serbs. As I recall, you are anti-Serb. |
I don't remember such a debate, actually I don't recall many Apolyton discussion where you actually contributed more than 3 line arguments...
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I only spend my time making coherent arguments to people who are pragmatic and/or open-minded and willing to engage in civilized debate. |
Again, who's the one of us whose arguments are centered on insulting the other one?
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But anything I post, you would simply call it Serb propaganda or something like that. |
No, I would, like in all discussion, respond in detail to your arguments, poining out what I think are the flaws in the reasoning, like I always do in hard debate. Ancyrean and Heresson, both holding 100% opposite views on important and emotional issues (Armenian genocide and catholicism, respectively) can give testimony. I respect them, because they too know how to lead a discussion and make actual arguments.
All I got from you is a simplistic "Croats fascists, Serbs victims, Albanians terrorists"...
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So instead of wasting my time, I'll just have fun with you. I have other "suggestions" for you, but this is a family site.  |
Even more civilised arguments on the topic, case closed.
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17-03-2005 23:47
but relatives on her side of the family talk about things when we see them. It's quite humbling to see people denounce their own people and country because of the evil that occurred. 
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